From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Bristol R.I. USA

I have a question about genetics and crossbreeding. I have certain apprehention to asking it because it may be common sence and I don't want to show how much I need to learn. So here goes...... I see many growers planting hot seeds for example the 1385 and 1161. My question is why would a grower not be more apt to plant a seed with say a 1385x1161 from a smaller pumpkin. Both are proven seeds and both have produced world records so why wouldn't a grower want to plant that cross to get the benafits of both world class seeds. Am I missing something here. Can somebody answer this question for me. I have a few seeds in mind to plant and some insight would be helpful.

10/18/2010 3:19:54 PM

Northern California Foothills

People want the big name seed. That is all there is to it. My main seeds next year will be from pumpkins less 900 lbs, but they are great crosses. They're just as good as a pumpkin 500 lbs larger that is the same cross. Grow those seeds you have.

10/18/2010 7:08:02 PM

Northern California Foothills

*less than 900lbs*

10/18/2010 7:08:38 PM

Dorval,Quebec

If one grower grows the same seed(and cross) twice under similar conditions and the weights are quite different,you may want the seed from the larger result.....On a different note,the 1308 and 1067 Todd were grown from the 50 Todd.Look at all the big ones from the 275 Van Hook...

10/18/2010 8:22:07 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

Good crosses are alot like sports teams that appear to be good on paper. The Dallas Cowboys for example, on paper they have a lot of good talent, even by NFL standards, but on the field this season, not so much.

Which teams play in the Super Bowl each year? The teams that have proven themselves to be the best on the field, not the teams that are the best on paper. Pumpkin seeds aren't much different. Which seeds see the most dirt? Usually the ones that have already been proven to be the best.

Why do the proven get planted the most? Because it takes a lot of time and effort to grow big pumpkins most growers want to select the seeds that give them the best odds of getting a big fruit to the finish line so they go with seeds that have been proven to do so.

Don't get me wrong Kenny I think that there are a lot of good seeds out there that just don't get planted, who knows maybe the best seeds in the world aren't getting planted.

10/18/2010 9:10:07 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

There are tons of seeds stored in closets and drawers all over the world with potential.

10/18/2010 9:55:42 PM

Colorado

hi kenny,when picking crosses go with the good bloodlines such as your 1385 x1161 example. Look at the size shape and color of both immediate parents to see if they expressed the traits from both sides that you like.Are you after the wallace genes or the pukos genes in the seed you desire? Theres a ton of seeds with those parents but theyll all be different. Pick one that has the traits you want. Pictures of the parents are a must- thats what makes the aggc a great resource.

10/20/2010 1:00:32 PM

Saskatchewan Fosston Canada

Pollination:
Am i still able to trade seeds who are handpolinated with 2 - 3 or more males from different plants.Or am i not allowed to do that.Is it a must that it has to be only one male.I have 3 plants every year,and i crosspolinate those 3 both way's.Is that okay or is it a no no.Maybe a stupid question i dont know?Thanks.
Bossen.

10/20/2010 1:38:35 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

Bossen, usually pollinations are done with males from the same plant. Using pollen from multiple plants isn't much different than an open pollination. When you lable the seeds just note that there were multiple pollinators. Something like:

1000 Bossen (1725 Harp x multiple pollinators)

10/21/2010 1:37:11 PM

Bristol,RI,USA.

Ken, just because a seed has two proven parents does not mean that it will produce like the parents There have been a few tries taken to reproduce the 1068 Wallace even by the Wallace’s but none are like the original, there is just something about certain seeds something clicks genetically that makes them special, creates hybrid vigor

10/21/2010 2:17:33 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

I would argue that AG's aren't hybrids and there isn't any hybrid vigor. Its just selection.

10/21/2010 2:41:00 PM

Northern California Foothills

I agree, there is no "hybrid vigor".

10/21/2010 8:15:18 PM

Joliet, IL

its all about increasing your odds. if a proven seed proves to grow big pumpkins multiple times by different growers...better odds you can grow a big one too. just odds percentages, no guarantees. that is for proven seeds.

for unproven seeds, if a seed produced say a 1605 pound pumpkin that was 15% heavy and was crossed with a male plant that produced a 1725 pound pumpkin...better odds that this cross will throw big cuz its genetics on both sides heavy already produced. its about increasing your odds on an unproven line with power on both sides.

good proven lineage on both sides with smaller pumpkins can easily produce monsters and have already done so. your example of a 1385 x 1161 cross where both pumpkins are smaller can easily be a great cross. but when you see the 1385 x 1161 in the 1544 that was pollinated by the 1161 plant that produced the 1579, than i personally like the odds of knowing the potential monsters are there from results. with limited space and only 3 plants, i would choose the 1544 over the same smaller version cross of the 1385 x 1161 if i had both crosses to choose from. limited space equals increasing percentages.

10/21/2010 9:08:47 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

"No hybrid vigor" how can you say that. 935 Lloyd x 856 Mettler, doesn't much better that that. It's the very foundation of the best seeds today. Look at the hierarchy tree of the 935 Lloyd, George Lloyd was ahead of his time.

10/21/2010 9:47:12 PM

Annapolis Valley Nova Scotia

cucurbits and PA Punkin' Pharmer perhaps you should read this. http://www.bigpumpkins.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=97

10/21/2010 11:20:41 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

IMHO, "hybrid vigor" or "heterosis" definitely exists...it simply may not always manifest itself in ways that we prefer(ie. an increase in fruit size/weight), or in ways that we all recognize or see/notice. I suggest that not enough specific "hybrid vigor" potential crosses have been created and then evaluated properly through subsequent plantings. Plus, the willingness to dedicate oneself to this multi-year task is also in short supply.
I myself created a 1068 Wallace x sib crossed by an 827 Holland x self "hybrid vigor" potential cross(my opinion), but, have yet to delve into the necessary subsequent plantings and evaluating. The best laid plans of mice and men...
Sometimes, hell, most of the time it's just more fun to cross big into big, or heavy into heavy, or orange into orange, or etc. And, of course, there is nothing wrong with this and it will continue to work to a certain degree...but, I believe the next generation of gains will be achieved through the completion of someone's "hybrid vigor" project. BF
Sorry for hyjacking your post Kenny. Maybe it's close enough to winter to start up another, separate "heterosis" post.

10/22/2010 12:37:19 AM

Bristol R.I. USA

No worries about hyjacking my post. No such thing...its important to get all ideas. this certainly is an eye opener. just like the 1385 Jutrus and the 1180 Pukos...both have the same genetics and one has been producing giants while the other hasn't gotten much attention however it still has produced pumpkins over 1600 lbs. when we think of proven seeds I think we put a whole lotta of stock into the person who grows the seed. The fact seems to be that a heavy hitter will never plant a seed that hasn't been proven , that is if he doesn't have a lot of planting area. If one heavy hitter had to plant one plant of an unproven seed how would he determine what to plant...lol Hope I'm not going in circles here.lol

10/22/2010 8:33:04 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

no one is arguing that certain crosses exhibit unique ability to produce monsters. but when you say "hybrid vigor" you are coining a catch phrase. that article is theory not fact, and by the way is quite outdated. just cause it's published on bp.com don't make it fact.

10/22/2010 8:49:32 AM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

Just because a plant is vigorous doesn't mean its displaying "hybrid" vigor. Rather obviously there is nothing wrong with todays seeds, but they aren't hybrids, not even close. If the hybrid vigor theories did hold water they were closer to being true ten years ago, when that article was published, than they are today with all the random crossing done since.

10/22/2010 3:02:00 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Today's seeds are just fine and many have produced monsters. At the same time, George Lloyd, Bill Bobier and Joe Pukos to name a few recognized the potential of the 935. The hybrid theories ten years ago, specifically the 723 and 845 did hold true. I don't know of any other 1999 seeds that have produced 3 over 1400 and 3 over 1300 as recently as 2007. Present growing techniques have lead to the incredible weights we are witnessing today. That doesn't mean you can dismiss hybrid vigor as a contributing factor. Pretty much all of the random crossings you refer to trace back to the 723 and 845. The BP article on hybrid vigor is one of many that support the theory ( I prefer rationale ) of hybrid vigor.

10/22/2010 9:33:29 PM

Manitoba,Canada

I would have to disagree. As a farmer, we plant Vigor Canola, which is hybrid seed. It costs more than regular seed, but is sure worth it. It costs more because the way it is made. Each year us pumpkin growers find seeds that we think will do good. We then grow them and cross them with each other, hoping to come up with the next big one. To be a hybrid seed, a seed has to be taken and self-pollinated (in isolation) each year and, each year, the seed is re-sown. Eventually, every time the seed is sown the same identical plants will appear. When you do, this is known as a pure line. Now if the grower crosses 2 pure lines, the seed become a hybrid. A completely pure line can sometimes take seven or eight years to achieve. I don't know of any grower today doing this, that has produced the world record. They are made up of different crosses. I believe seeds play a big role today, but the knowledge today that we have, plays a better role. No 2 growers are alike. One will do this and the other will do that. One lives here, while the other lives way over there.
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/archives/parsons/vegetables/seed.html

10/30/2010 1:48:35 PM

Bemidji Minnesota

Looking at the 723, and 845 cross, so far as I can tell those were not closely related, I do see something in what has been going on lately, that may yield some 1 ton potential in genetics.

Many of the current heavy hitting lines tend to have some of the same ancestors. In other words, are closely related, and many contain most of, if not all the same ancestors, going back several generations.

What many growers may be doing, not realizing it, is homogenizing these AG’s, essentially through plants that are as closely related as siblings, even though they think they are making crosses.

For example, the 1544 Revier 2009 (just to pick on Chad) = 1385 Jutras x 1161 Rodonis is NOT in my opinion anything close to a hybrid cross, and is for all intents and purposes, a homogenization, I would consider it EXCELENT re-enforcing of good genes.

The 1385 was 998 Pukos (1420.5 LaRue x 1446.0 Eaton), x 1068 Wallace (845 Bobier x 898 Knauss)

The 1161 is 1231 Pukos (1446.0 x 1420.5 LaRue) Eaton x 1450 Wallace (1068 Wallace x sib).

I would not expect hybrid vigor from the 1544, but it might take less generations to homogenize by selfing because it already has had all of only 4 ancestors bred back into it from every which way.

11/6/2010 10:34:37 PM

Bemidji Minnesota

Now something not as close to them, or at least that has been isolated for several generations could possibly add more unrelated genes, or at least ones that have been isolated from it for enough generations now resulting in some hybrid vigor (if it exists in AG’s)

Maybe something like a selfed 1370 Rose, like the 1356.5 Reid? So perhaps a cross of the 1356.5 x 1544 may result in seeds with new monster potential, just for example.

Only problem is I do not know if those 1370 genes have been seperate long enough from the current popular family of descendants from the 845, 898, 1446, and 1420.5 in order to cause hybrid vigor.

So if anyone has seed that have not seen that family in a while, and can grow very large...

Anyway, that would be my bet for a cross in this crap shoot. :)

11/6/2010 10:34:42 PM

milford, CT,

Kenny,..The tide is beginning to turn..Look at the 991 Urena..same as 998 Pukos..some people trusted the cross and it produced..If you think a cross is good, plant it...if it produces you will be more confident trusting genetics instead of who grew it. Make a cross yourself and actually plant it..This is an old arguement..why do people make great crosses and yet they don't plant it themselves the next year? Also..with the changes going on regarding requesting seeds it is going to be tough to hold seeds a year or two until they are proven...so why not make the seed cross you want and grow it....Mark

11/11/2010 10:32:58 AM

Bloomington, IN

My motto is, any seed is a good seed until proven bad. lol

11/11/2010 1:16:37 PM

Deer Park, WI

Kenny- to answer your question directly, your logic is rational- planting seeds from world record crosses (1385 x 1161- as you propose) ensures a genetic history with a proven record.

Regarding hybrid vigor- When I penned those articles nearly ten years ago, it was intended to explore an intriguing possibility, not to prove the existence of this phenomena. I am still, to this day, unconvinced that HV truly existed in those seed lines.

Further, I am convinced that HV does NOT exist in today's pool of seeds. Years of outcrossing have diluted seedlines uniqueness and we may have lost our opportunity to explore HV in AG's for many many years.

Improved growing practices, in my opinion, deserve the lion's share of credit for the increases in top weights over the last few years.

The bottom line is we are all on a mostly level playing field when it comes to the genetic side of growing pumpkins. 1161 is hot, yes. But we all know the next "hotter" seed is already out there, possibly in your collections, just waiting to be proven by a skilled/lucky grower.

The only thing "magical" about 1068, 1161, 1385, is that they were widely planted by the most skilled/lucky growers in the world. Consider how many of the world's largest fruit were grown off "non-proven" seeds (1675 hopkins?)

11/12/2010 9:13:22 AM