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Bristol R.I. USA

What is it? Anyone know or is it a theory?

11/30/2010 1:53:10 PM

East Jordan, MI

Kenny,
Here are two articles I've found and read
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=97
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=98

11/30/2010 5:40:47 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I think those articles were correct for their time. If we consider the present, I think the picture is different. I think the current state of genetics in AGs is like a huge pot of chili, that is being stirred, rapidly. We're just mixing up the genetics without regard to any individual strains... in fact they've been gone for a while. What two seeds would you cross today that are significantly different from each other? I have a bag of seeds that are now (1725 Harp X 1467 Perham). That happens to be 3/4 1385 Jutras.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. The weights keep going up and so who would argue with what we're doing?

I think the "silver bullet" theory that has been discussed recently has some merit.

11/30/2010 6:19:34 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I'm going to regret this but either the hybrid vigor theory is sound or it isn't. Cliff I think your 1725 x 1467 has as much a chance as any seed to produce a giant. I think some of the debate comes from people getting the idea that one way is better than the other. I personally feel that if HV exists in the animal kingdom then why not the plant kingdom. It's no guarantee, but take a herd of cattle and let them get in on for a few years. Then introduce some outside bull batter and see what happens ;)

11/30/2010 6:59:38 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

Whats the silver bullet theory? All this makes sence to me. So you got the 1385 Jutras and the 1180 Pukos. Both have the same parents. Is this to say that the 1385 was or has better genetics because of a certain domanant trait that the 1180 didnt get because of the silver bullet theory. By cross breeding particular seeds are we just hoping to get the favorable traits like larger pumpkins capable of thicker walls, heat resistance, vigorouse vines. Or is it a guarentee. Why is it that the 1385 has grown heavier pumpkins than the 1180 both have the same traits and same parents? Under some theories does it mean that possibly the 1385 was given some gene or was the plant during pollination better able to accept a certain trait. I hope I'm not confusing people here and I hope I'm not going to deep into the other 90% of the brain that God chose to protect us from. Lol. Interesting though.

11/30/2010 9:41:52 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Kenny, as I understand it...and I tend to be wrong more often than correct...In any given AG, that produces seeds...there is one "Silver Bullet Seed" that will (here's the twist, "in the right growers hands") produce "The MONSTER"!!! The underlying theory I guess, is that each and every seed produced by any pkn, is just a lil different!!! Someone, sometime stated it sorta like this...It's a crap shoot!!! That being said...it certainly seems like AG growers have been on track for narrowing the odds!!! Would certainly like to know of any other sport/hobby where the world record has been broken (almost) every year for the past 10 years!!! Hybrid Vigor, or Silver Bullet, Growing methods, or dedication!!! AG growers seem to be on track!!! Peace, Wayne

11/30/2010 10:55:13 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

Okay. So every seed in a pumpkin isnt created equal. Some will have a better chance of growing bigger and thicker. Like the seed that grew the 1068. The best seed from that pumpkin was probably planted that produced the 1068 and certain favorable traits where isolated that are common in all pumpkins from the 1068 seed. Am I on the right train and train track?

11/30/2010 11:17:05 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

hy·brid  /ˈhaɪbrɪd/ definition
[hahy-brid]

–noun
1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, esp. as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.


vigor /ˈvɪgər/ definition
[vig-er]

–noun
1. force of healthy growth in any living matter or organism, as a plant.


het·er·o·sis definition
Pronunciation: /ˌhet-ə-ˈrô-səs/

-noun Genetics .
the increase in growth, size, fecundity, function, yield, or other characters in hybrids over those of the parents, called also hybrid vigor

12/1/2010 12:14:11 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Kenny, I am not sure? But it certainly seems like...(guessing by what the 1068 has brought forth, $ wise at auctions in the past few years) that, either I am way off track, or folks don't believe in the "Silver Bullet" theory!!! Like I said...I am usually wrong!! LOL Peace, Wayne

12/1/2010 1:00:02 AM

Rhode Island

hybred vigor kenny?
thats what you had after completing basic training at paris island s.c.
pap

12/1/2010 8:34:51 AM

Deer Park, WI

Perhaps its time for a third installment of the hybrid vigor concept as it applies today? I agree with Cliff...

12/1/2010 8:58:58 AM

The bottom of New Jersey

So technically speaking then, there can't be "hybrid" vigor within AGs since we are not crossing different breeds, varieties, species or genera. We are creating more "vigor" in the same way that breeders of dogs, cattle, horses, whatever breed two excellent specimens with each other to get even more excellence from their offspring. To me, "hybrid" and "vigor" are two entirely separate concepts that often do not mix together well.

12/1/2010 9:26:46 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Putting it another way, I think there were two "strains" of giant pumpkins when we started this. ("WE" being those active growers in the early to mid-80's...) There was the Dill line, and there was another. And as these lines came together over several generations, we selected the best and moved on with the best. That's about as broad-based and general as I can describe it... There might have been some hybrid vigor there.

But today, what is the second line? We have none. We're doing pretty good with the line we have, but going forward we may need to have a different strategy.

(Hey, I'm just thinking out loud here!)

As for the Silver Bullet theory, what that is, is the *fact* that every seed in a pumpkin is different. Each seed's potential could be placed on a curve. Some percentage of that pumpkin's seeds are going to be great, and some are going to be dogs. A large percentage are going to be in the middle. The problem is, we have no *practical* way of determining what the shape of that curve is, or where any given seed fits on that curve. We can make a guess however, that being whichever pumpkin is biggest, it likely came from a silver bullet seed.

12/1/2010 10:18:34 AM

Bristol R.I. USA

Wow lotta info to digest. Lol!

12/1/2010 10:18:44 AM

President - GPC

This is great info!... How do we get another side into it....Old Squash genetics again.> ? I got a few old seeds from our new state champ this year.... was a Colorado State record back in the 80's....1983..ITs the 349 TODD 83 female was..the 493.5 Dill (1981 World Record) X the 348 Dill.....Old indeed...is there any way we can get theZe to germ? Would be worth a try if I had more Barry.......I'd love to try....thoughtZ?

12/1/2010 10:30:18 AM

Deer Park, WI

Cliff speaks wisdom.

"Silver bullet" theory is misleading. The term should be reserved for describing a tasty, cool, refreshing beer from the rockies, not a pumpkin seed.

And its not a theory, its statistical probability. There are "ouliers" in every brood. Think of the runt in a litter of pigs. It is an outlier.

Let me put my neck out there, at risk of it being lopped off by the masses who refuse to accept scientific principle-

Hybrid vigor does not exist it TODAY's AG seeds. By definition of the concept, it cannot exist, for the reasons cited in Cliff's post. HV requires two separate purified genetic lines to be combined. Our "Chili", as Cliff aptly described, does not allow for this phenomena to take place.

And for the record, science has conclusively demonstrated that the potential for HV exists within C. maxima species. Let me reiterate, however, that we will not be able to reproduce this observation in AG's until lines are purified for many generations.

Lastly, I just read a reference that concluded selfing C.maxima for 10 generations did not lead to "inbreeding depression", the scientific opposite of Hybrid Vigor, where performance characteristics are decreased due to self crossing.

Please let this serve as reasoning to give more credence to self crosses, if indeed our purpose is to advance and maximize the genetic capacitiy of our beloved hobby.

12/1/2010 10:37:13 AM

Long Island,New York

What are the odds that the silver bullet seed as you call it landed in the hands of the better grower in a season of the better weather, germinated, was selected to stay because it had whatever characteristics are considered uber-characteristics by that super grower in the super season with the super soil and grew unmolested by mother natures little beasties, was harvested at the right time w/o incident and delivered to the scale?....my money rests on the upper medium pumpkin in the bell curve as the silver bullet potential unrealized.

12/1/2010 10:48:11 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Yeah, the term "Silver Bullet" is misleading because it implies perhaps just one seed is all we're after in any given fruit. That's where the shape of the curve comes in, which we don't know. There may be 10, or there may be 50 seeds that qualify as "positive outliers".

I think I read where someone was speculating that the 1161 isn't getting too much attention now because "it's best seed was already planted." That's nuts. The 1161 is still an awesome seed. There could be dozens more great seeds from that seed stock. It's not like the "Ace of Spades" has already been dealt, so you know it's no longer in the dealer's hand.

I wonder what we could come up with to describe this. People will want to call it something, and "Silver Bullet" really seems to flow. How about an "Ace"? Four aces in a deck, 40 in a seed stock? Ah, I don't know............

12/1/2010 11:18:11 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

It's a slow day here, so I'll keep rambling. (It's not costing you anything! You get what you pay for....!)

Here's a way to *maybe* identify an outlier. The practice of statistics proves to us that if you take about 15 seeds from any seed stock and plant them, there is a high percentage (say, 95%) chance that one of those 15 is a positive outlier. Then, it's a matter of selecting from those 15. Of course, many of us do not have the space or time to grow 15 plants, and it's not so fun to grow all the same seed stock. You could cull a number of plants, but that would need to happen early in the season, so we really can't see fruit growth before culling.

Let's say I was retired (only about 25 years to go!) and I already do have the space... and I wanted to waste 6 months of my life growing 15 of my (1725 X 1467), I could identify the best of that group, and "choose" it, then do the same thing next year... and so forth.

Ultimately this is what we're already doing when we choose to grow seeds from big fruit. It's just a little more disorganized and may take us longer to get there. But with the power of numbers, numbers of growers, we're on cruise control!

Hey, I just want to grow a 1000 pounder before I die. lol...

12/1/2010 11:40:22 AM

Arden, NC

I find this to be very interesting, however I'm with Joze and Cliff on this one in that much of this is anecdotal and speculative unless the data is put together and evaluated in a statistical format. The BP community could evaluate some of the parameters of how a given pumpkin seeds produce by aquiring data on what every seed from that pumpkin produces far beyond what is listed on the aggc. The data set would have to include daily moisture/precip, hours daily sunshine, nutrients added, daily high and overnight lows, daily ground temp readings, in addition to other vital information like disease state, insect levels, pollination dates, etc. The best way to run a program like that would be to take a "good" pumpkin (with well respected genetics) and farm those seeds out
(over 2-3 years) to responsible growers who would be willing to gather data daily and report it onto a spreadsheet that could be mined for statistical relevance. (say set it up with the aggc) This would be the basis for forming an idea of what the bell curve of an "n" sample of 1 would look like. To get a statistically significant population would be very hard to get and would take many years but the bigger question is can nature vs nurture be teased out with a sample of 1 and could that data lead to a civilized discussion of "best practices" for all of the BP community.

12/1/2010 12:17:17 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Another super Post
Joze your comment:Lastly, I just read a reference that concluded selfing C.maxima for 10 generations did not lead to "inbreeding depression", the scientific opposite of Hybrid Vigor, where performance characteristics are decreased due to self crossing.
Can you add you input into what has happened with the 895 Hester/848 Mackenzie lines as inbreeding sure looks like it popped it's ugly head on them.
I think we're congesting the genetics and need to revive more older gentic lines. We won't get the HV but we should get Vigor, which maybe all we ever had

12/1/2010 12:39:17 PM

Colorado

My thoughts are that hybred vigor is unlikely with our crossing the biggest with the biggest.I think its possible that the 898knauss and 935 genes did spice up the chili.Every year were putting more face cards in the giant pumpkin poker hand.The silver bullet is a strait flush or 4 aces type seed.

12/1/2010 12:43:57 PM

Deer Park, WI

Eddy, I've read your article regarding the squash inbreeding. Initially i was resistant to the idea, however it certainly warrants consideration.

True inbreeding depression, characterized by the inheritance of recessive traits that negatively impact performance, is possibly taking place due to years of inbreeding.

This observation defies the conclusion of the experiment referenced above.

The one way to substantiate Eddy's claim is to, as he suggests, outcross the squash line with significantly different parentage. Run a seed germination test on the progeny, and if germination is significantly higher than non-outcrossed progeny, we may have proof of principle.

12/1/2010 1:14:56 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

To my understanding or maybe not the 1421 Stelts and the 1161 Rodonis come from different genetic lines. Getting the magic bullet from a cross of those 2 seeds could be exciting. This certainly is interesting to say the least. The good Lord only knows how big these AG's can get with the right seed and magic touch. I now understand the reason why most growers plant proven seeds from years past. It helps when thinking about selecting the magic one.

12/1/2010 2:33:39 PM

Long Island,New York

Could someone please fill me in on the bad characteristics that are referenced in the "Ugly head" comment. What are the bad characteristics that are indicating inbred depression in this discussion?

12/1/2010 4:38:47 PM

Deer Park, WI

G- I will not presume to speak on Eddy's behalf, but from reading his article, he observes squash with the 895/848 heritage are challenging to successfully pollinate. He surmises poor fertilzation may be due to the degrees of inbreeding that this line has been exposed to over the years. Thus, the inbred depressive characteristic referred to in the discussion above is poor fruit set.

12/1/2010 7:33:27 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Kenny, thanks!!! Glad I could help!!! LOL Peace, Wayne
PS...clear as mud, eh? LOL
Sorta think, that the "It's a crap shoot" line, still holds some merit!!!So far!!!

12/1/2010 8:12:53 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Yes sir what Joze said.

12/1/2010 8:32:18 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Now I'm chain smoking.

12/1/2010 8:44:11 PM

Deer Park WA

We have never had any problems self or sibb pollinating our 611* which is a three generations deep self and sibb of the 895. We havent tried crossing any outside genetics into the 611* that may be an interesting experiment.

12/1/2010 11:36:35 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Ha ha, I once grew a seed that was the 846 Calai, selfed three times. The fruit ended up nearly white and quite small. That was a huge disappointment, as up until that time I had been a strong supporter of selfed seeds.

12/2/2010 1:03:16 AM

Long Island,New York

I have grown the 900 lyons (mother of 895) 3-4 times and have had issues pollinating. I have heard this from others as well (as memory serves- its not a recent topic!)and have always concluded that the pollination issues go back to the 900. The seeds from the 900 benefitted from an outcross 724willemse x 755 Craven (mostly watermans and dills with some x open). Following that the 900 was sibbed by Brett using two plants that produced squash creating the 895. He did two sibbs that year with the same two 900's...one only produces pumpkins, one only squash- same parents. The 895 that grows greenies of various colors was then crossed with
the 756Kennedy which was also outcrossed- this with 990Hebb which has lots of new and different genetics to create the 848MacKenzie. Based upon:
1) the mix of the 724 and the 755 to make the 900
2)the fact that each of the 900 x sibs(895 and 986) create consistently opposite colors
3) The addition of very dissimilar genes when the 848 was created with a combination with 900hebb genes and
4)The experienced pollination issues of the 900lyons in my patches and others, I think one should conclude that it cannot be inbreeding depression thats to blame in the 895 line.

12/2/2010 9:46:54 AM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

Cliff, what seed was it that grew you the small white pumpkin?

Thanks,
Kevin

12/2/2010 11:37:34 AM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Glenn, I understand what your saying BUT, the 900 Lyons line will cross quite easily with a pumpkin, or itself, It is the non 900 lyons Squash that abort almost every time.

12/2/2010 11:48:25 AM

Long Island,New York

Wow...not my experience at all.But whatever.

12/2/2010 2:38:35 PM