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Massillon, Ohio

Haven't seen this discussed before, but here's what I've been thinking about.....Would pollinating with just one male flower, instead of a few, increase the probability of more consistant qualities in the progeny? I know many people prefer to pollinate with a few flowers, thinking it will increase their chances of a successful pollination, even though one grain is all that is necessary. When you look at AGGC "family portraits" and see a variety of shapes and colors, could it be that several flowers were used to pollinate? OR....even if several flowers were used, did just one grain perform the pollination? I'm thinking of this as a separate issue from the combinations of dominate and recessive genes.

11/30/2010 9:17:56 PM

Rhode Island

a very good point and quite possible?

12/1/2010 8:31:34 AM

Deer Park, WI

Great question Nana. The straightforward and simple answer is "no", pollinating with one flower vs multiple from the same plant will not increase consistency.

The reason is that the variability lies within the pollen grains themselves, not the flowers. This is basic biological fact. I state this not to toot my horn but to assure you there is not room for speculation on this one.

Here's an analogy- Fraternal twins come from two separate eggs that are released and fertilized at the same ovulation. Fraternal twins have similarities in appearance but no moreso than siblings and they are NOT identical. You cannot increase the likelihood of creating identical appearances by simply fertilizing eggs closer in time or proximity. And you see the result of using a single male over time...a dad (single sperm donor) will create many unique appearing offspring.

Coming back to AG's, the only strategy for increasing consistency is to implement self-pollination breeding programs across multiple generations of fruit. This is what commercial crop breeders have known for decades. And when they take a heavily selfed line and outcross with a completely different line with unique qualities, that's what produces this concept called "hybrid vigor"

12/1/2010 9:10:06 AM

President - GPC

JoZe,

This iZ great stuff...are there any books that you would recommend for us that we could learn more about this? This has alwayZ facinated WiZ and I really want to learn more......Good question Nana.....

now...another question.....
I have read that the pollination window for pumpkinating is quite short....sun up....when the flower openZ, the sweet smellZ begin...and the male pollen startZ to warm (beeZ out getting all CraZy like...) to around noon ish....then no longer viable.....

Another grower sayZ he likes to pollinate several timeZ per day..sun up to sun down.....just like the beeZ do...pumpkin sex all day long... reapplying more pollen and increaZing seed counts later on in his opinion.......Any truth to this?....and otherZ chimme in too as this is really an interesting subject.....crucial to our hobby. Matt D, Id like to hear your take as well.....

12/1/2010 10:15:42 AM

Deer Park, WI

WiZ-

A quick google search reveals that sadly, there is no "plant biology for dummies" I find this hard to believe and perhaps requires a more in-depth search. The alternative is an introduction to plant biology textbook. However this option is more likely to induce sleep than knowledge.

The most important consideration for those with an appetite for learning, like WiZ, is to become familiar with the jargon us geeks throw out there as if it was common language. Understanding/visualizing the definition of various terms makes the learning of concepts so much easier in my experience.

If you see a word or phase on here that is shrouded in mystery, plop it into wikipedia and read read read. Its a great resource for understanding basic defiitions and concepts.

Lastly, if there is enough interest from the AG community, I'd be happy to submit an abstract proposal to the Niagara steering committe with the intent of taking the podium at Niagara to explore these topics (hybrid vigor, plant phys) in a way that the non-biologist can understand them. Cast your nomination (perhaps in a new post) and we'll see if the committee bites on the proposal!

12/1/2010 10:59:26 AM

Massillon, Ohio

So what is the answer to the question: "Does just one grain perform the pollination?" If so...the more pollen equals more seeds theory isn't correct.

12/1/2010 11:06:01 AM

Deer Park, WI

Another great question, Nana.

The straightforward answer is again "no" one grain does not complete a pollination.

And time for another analogy. A cob of corn has hundreds of silks, right? Ever stop to think about what those silks are, other than an annoyance when munching a cob of summer sweet corn?

Those silks are officially called "trichomes". Every single kernal of corn on a ear of corn sprouts one of these things and needs to be fertilized by a grain of pollen. In order for this to occur, literally hundreds of pollen grains land on the tip of the developing cob. Those pollen grains "sprout" and grow a pollen tubes inside of the trichome (read: silk). One tube for every kernal on the cob. If a kernal doesnt hook up with a pollen grain, you've got an empty slot on the cob.

Same principle applies to pumpkins. Hundreds of pollen grains hook up with hundreds of eggs via pollen tubes. Every viable seed in the pumpkin is the result of thousands/millions of pollen grains that, when come in contact with the pistil (female reproductive organ) sprout a pollen tube that grows into the developing golf ball-sized pumpkin. After making its journey from the outside to the inside, the pollen DNA combines with an ovule (egg/seed) DNA to create what we eventually recognize as a seed.

12/1/2010 11:32:33 AM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Joze, would love to hear your theory as mine differs from yours.
I believe you can pollinate with several males but they need to come from the main vine. The minute you take males from side vines or terr. vines, you mixing up the pot.
To carry the trait of the mother father, you should pollinate with only main vine flowers. I do think 1 male is better.
In selfing a plant, you really need to pollinate with flowers from the same vine as you are growing the pumpkin on. so if you self a plant on the main vine, then the flowers need to come from the main vine also. That in my theory would give you a true selfed plant, If you choose to pollinate a pumpkin on the main with a flower from the 4th side vine, you are essentially sibbing the plant.
Again this is my thoughts.

To elaborate on this a bit more, If you grow a plant out and allow pumpkins on the main and also on the sides, the shape and color can differ from each other, because of the plant structure, So I believe each main and each side should be treated as independant plants.

I'm no scientist, just a carpenter, but agree this really should be expored more , because at this stage in the game, little things like correct pollination can push the 2000 pound barrier sooner than later

12/1/2010 12:28:29 PM

Arden, NC

Joze quote

"Same principle applies to pumpkins. Hundreds of pollen grains hook up with hundreds of eggs via pollen tubes. Every viable seed in the pumpkin is the result of thousands/millions of pollen grains that, when come in contact with the pistil (female reproductive organ) sprout a pollen tube that grows into the developing golf ball-sized pumpkin. After making its journey from the outside to the inside, the pollen DNA combines with an ovule (egg/seed) DNA to create what we eventually recognize as a seed."

Ok, I have a basic pumpkin biology question given the above information, is a baby pumpkin "born" with x number of "potential" eggs/seeds or can low seeds counts in a pumpkin be simply due to poor "pollen" vigor (if there is such a thing)

12/1/2010 12:33:19 PM

Long Island,New York

The straightforward answer is again "no" one grain does not complete a pollination.

hmmmm..................
In a pumpkin which has 1 viable seed in it, one grain DID complete the polinization.

In a pumpkin like the 1810.5, 19 grains completed the pollintation....

so shouldnt the real straightforward answer be "it can"?

12/1/2010 12:46:21 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Glenn there could have been a 1000 grain of pollen completing the pollination, The development of the seeds after the pollinatin is where the system failed, I don't think it was in the pollination.

12/1/2010 12:53:18 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I second Joze's explanations.

All of the collective pollen from the one given plant carries the same distribution of traits (within flowers and among flowers), but those traits are not the same in every individual pollen grain (in fact they can be wildly different). The same is true for the female ovules.

As Nana Rae points out "When you look at AGGC "family portraits" and see a variety of shapes and colors." That's due, in part, to the variability in the genes among that family (mother and father). Just like you see a distribution of traits among brothers and sisters in large human families - some are taller some are shorter etc. (Not accounting for a brother that looks like the milk-man, although that probably happens too in AG's).

It’s worth pointing out that fully 50% of the genes come from the mother and 50% from the father. That should give a good indication as to how to pick the best seeds for next year. Both the mother and father should be considered equally. By mother and father I mean the plant that grew the fruit and the plant that provided the pollen.

On the last question: To make an individual seed it takes one ovule (basically a "pre-seed" inside the baby pumpkin) and one pollen grain (from a male flower). For 500 seeds it takes 500 ovules and 500 pollen grains reaching those ovules. It may only take 1 seed to get the fruit to grow though.

12/1/2010 12:58:48 PM

Colorado

Eddy, interesting thought. Is there some scientific rationale for using only the main vine flowers to pollinate?

12/1/2010 1:03:39 PM

Deer Park, WI

Eddy, my thoughts regarding the above are not theory, rather scientific fact. Im sorry, but your theory defies scientific principle. Again, and this is not speculation, genetic variability is strictly tied to the pollen grains themselves and in no way is influenced by location on the plant itself. A pollen grain from a main vine flower is no more like its parent plant than a grain from a tertiary flower. This is indisputable.

Rook- baby pumpkins are indeed "born" with a set number of ovules (potential seeds). Im sure this is variable from pumpkin to pumpkin. Many factors are involved in successful fertilization (pollen-egg matching)and indeed, low seed counts can be impacted by "poor pollen vigor" as you describe. Biology is complex...so many factors influencing each and every process...

G- As a matter of semantics, your statement is correct...depending on the context in which the question was interpreted. Can a single grain of pollen pollinate the entirety of the seeds in the pumpkin? NO. Can a single grain of pollen pollinate a single seed? YES.

12/1/2010 1:05:48 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Susie, yes the baby pumpkins are "born" with a set number of ovules (determined by genetics and environment). If you cut open unpollinated baby pumpkins you can see them.

One could also see these during seed collection as the undeveloped "seeds" where pollination was less than optimal. In a plant with low ovules to begin with there wouldn't be as many seeds even with optimal pollination.

12/1/2010 1:06:07 PM

President - GPC

JoZe,

Ahh....but there iZ.....sometimeZ thingZ are not aZ they seem JoZe....

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/plant-biology-roots-shoots-stems-and-leaves.html

I will study forward......"aZ"...ah I mean as.... I learn more...and

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/genetics-examining-the-basics-of-chromosomes.html
with time I will find more to share.....

I vote that 'YES' we have this type of brain storming at the Nigara convention....if we are to Assimilate to the next level and grow 2 K....then let'Z go there at the place we all meet to learn more from those that 'know more', several of them pollinating flowers of knowledge......we should also provide materials and hand outs.....lots of smart folks up there at the convention....Yup.

12/1/2010 1:14:49 PM

President - GPC

This ought to be interesting as well....lol

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/getting-to-know-einsteins-wives.html

12/1/2010 1:17:15 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Again I agree with Joze on what we know to be true biologically.

12/1/2010 1:17:29 PM

Arden, NC

Thanks Joze and Scott, Great thread and great answers!

12/1/2010 1:19:03 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

eddyz may be thinking of the very very very low possibility of a "sport" occurring. A "sport" is a somatic recombination or chimaeral rearrangements or rarely a random mitotic mutation that changes the plant DNA arrangement or code outside of sexual reproduction, sometimes with interesting results, but often negatively. Though I would think sports would be equally likely anywhere on the plant and thus not an issue for picking male flowers from main vs other vines. Overall "sports" are exceptionally rare.

12/1/2010 1:33:33 PM

Annapolis Valley Nova Scotia

Joze and bathabitat thanks for taking the time for posting, very interesting stuff!

12/1/2010 2:35:31 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Joze, I agree with you on the Scientifics, absolutely, BUT I believe that the Giant Pumpkins are in a class of their own, yes they are a C maxima strain, but a strain within a strain. I believe your study's come from C maximas in general. I would love to see some studies done on the Giants only without combining them as a type.

12/1/2010 3:20:39 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Also just to add Joze, you are much smarted with this stuff than most, and I absolutely love the fact that your telling all of us the science. We need more of this. What you write in 3 posts takes someone like me weeks to research. so keep it up.

12/1/2010 3:26:56 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Longmont, No real science, I guess, more just reasearch on what I've seen.

12/1/2010 3:31:28 PM

Massillon, Ohio

OK Joze...considering your following statements: 1)"pollinating with one flower vs multiples from the same plant will not increase consistancy." (in the progeny)
2)"NO...one grain does not complete pollination. Hundreds of pollen grains hook up with hundreds of eggs via pollen tubes."

Sooo....my next question: Wouldn't the pollen grains from ONE flower have less variables in DNA the the grains from several flowers mixed together? If so, it seems that would mean more consistancy in seeds - therefore more consistancy in progeny.

Where am I going astray in my thinking?

12/1/2010 3:51:59 PM

Massillon, Ohio

I totally agree with Eddy. Your input of the science is most appreciated. And I agree with you and Wiz. Your speaking at the convention would be fantastic! So "a non-biologist can understand"!! Yaaay! I was listening sooo hard to the one speaker last year that my brain actually hurt!

12/1/2010 3:57:46 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Every somatic cell (that is, non-pollen, non-egg cell) in the plant has for all intents and purposes the exact same DNA as every other somatic cell. That's why it doesn't matter where on the plant the flowers arise, they all start with the same DNA.

Although the DNA gets reshuffuled during meiosis (the egg and pollen making process) the same base DNA is used at every flower, so the distribution of characteristics will be the same for every flower.

12/1/2010 4:10:27 PM

Deer Park, WI

Eddy- thank you for the kind words, and I certainly respect your perspectives. Helping others understand complex topics is both my profession and a labor of love, especially so when it applies to my favorite hobby.

Nana- Allow me to try another analogy. If I put two dice into a cup and roll them out, is the probility that I will roll two "Fives" any different than if I roll one die in one cup and the second die with a separate cup?

The point being that the cup(s) have no influence on the outcome of the dice. In this analogy, the cup(s) is equivalent to a flower. Dice are equivelent to pollen grains.

Does that clear the air?

12/1/2010 4:44:01 PM

Minnesota

no.........

12/1/2010 5:13:15 PM

Massillon, Ohio

So on a given plant, all the grains of pollen are identical? And are the ovules identical? So are multiple fruit on the same plant identical? Why not? I'm ready for my next analogy!!!!

12/1/2010 5:14:45 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Yep, nice analogy.

12/1/2010 5:27:11 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

No, the grains are not identical, and the ovules are not identical. Each is different. But the way that these grains and ovules are created is something that we cannot see or predict. The plant does what it does, it "rolls the dice", and we get what we get. By rolling the dice, I mean that it starts with special cells that have all the genes, and splits these cells in a special way so that each pollen cell or ovule has half of the normal set of genes. Now, what you actually get is random (to us).

Now, if a plant had a magical way of making "better" male flowers, well, you'd win the Nobel prize if you could prove that, and probably solve world hunger! ;-) (Well, not really, because hunger is caused by bad politics and corruption, but ok... let's not go there.)

I like males that grow on the main, but only because they tend to be bigger flowers, growing on a bigger vine, but genetically they are essentially the same as any other male flower on the plant.

12/1/2010 5:36:50 PM

Arden, NC

Miss Nana, I think what he is getting at, is that the range of variability in pollen is the same from flower to flower. Lets take his cup analogy. Each die in the cup have an out come range from 1-6. Given the sum of the toss of two die from each cup the result will be a total of 2-12. The range is the where the outcomes will fall. Each grain of pollen is scripted with its own outcome. In a pumpkin EACH seed ovule the mothers genetic range is present, when it is pollinated with a grain of pollen the two genetic "scripts" are combined for the "script" for that pumpkins outcome.
Why each grain of pollen and each ovule is quite distinct has to do with the way the reproductive cells divide and which cells acquire certain genetic dominances and recessivness. Scott an Joze can explain it better than I can.

12/1/2010 5:43:35 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I wish I could justify going to Niagara. It would be great to meet you all and have fun learning this stuff.

One thing that is fascinating about this is that genes are not really "created". All of the genes we have today existed in the original fruit. It's how we're managing it, improving the gene selection, and of course using better and better growing methods.

12/1/2010 5:47:00 PM

East Jordan, MI

This is great stuff! This will be bookmarked along with many other great articles that I have found as I have continued my quest for knowledge. Thanks for sharing and a special thanks to Nana Rea for the post that created this discussion.

12/1/2010 6:12:56 PM

Minnesota

nana this might seem really involved but thats because it is really involved. both Joe and Eddy are 100% correct. Eddy is trying to steer you to the most dominant pollen on the plant and that would be the the male on the main vine. the males on the secondaries and tertiaries also have the same exact dna as the flower on the main but they are arranged in a different order so the main vine pollen has dominance over them.

did you know that if you grow your plant out further, you can even grow some very nice large gourds on there too. I use them for decorations in the fall. their like a box of chocolates........never know what your going to get!!

12/1/2010 6:13:34 PM

President - GPC

Cliff,
Pardon me for asking, but why not go to Niagara??....GPC pays for smart folks to show up and share their information within the seminars, Q & A which in turn gets reshared....(if I don’t kill too many brain cells up there watching dancing) with growers in my club. It is time we get a brain storming session here for folks to learn about exactly this genetics......and Matt D and his cloning as well. IT's simply fascinating I think....and a great genetic upgrade to our hobby....Why not....Dave SteltZ....here you go....genetic material for our club....I’m going to let the good Dr know about this thread too....he will simply love this....we WANT MORE! Most of our growing population loves this type of think logy...to make our hobby better, grow it forward....keep this thread going.......Whoa...where'd the Z go::?
Great questions Nana.......

12/1/2010 6:42:00 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Thanks for asking. Eventually I probably will. I can afford it. On the other hand, I have five kids and their expenses are high... I was about to suggest, on another thread, that we do Niagara on odd numbered years and Vegas on even numbered years, but there are so many growers in the Great Lakes region for whom this is an easy drive to make.

12/1/2010 6:53:04 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Thank you Dean, That's what I was trying to say. It's the brain to finger thing where the translation got lost

12/1/2010 6:59:21 PM

Deer Park, WI

WiZ, I'll look forward to your feedback on those "...for dummies" readings. Nice finds, i hope the provide what you are after.

The window of fertility question you pose is beyond my current understanding and will require a little self study to grasp, assuming the evidence is documented somewhere.

12/1/2010 7:25:13 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Just wikipedia'd for "abstract proposals"...awl I found was a pic of Joze!!! LOL Just kiddin, and GREAT info here!!!
My question is...did the 1810 have only the "16" or so eggs inside, or did only the "16" or so survive? &/or why? Peace, Wayne

12/1/2010 8:37:14 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Whew! I need a smoke!

12/1/2010 8:41:55 PM

Wi

Wayne, 1810 had I believe about 300 "possible" seeds in the pumpkin.

12/1/2010 8:46:49 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Dean C - I'm not exactly following what you mean by dominant pollen. It may be the terminology. Dominance tends to have a specific meaning when you're talking about genetics. Do you really mean genetically dominant?

Main vine flowers might be bigger and therefore make more pollen (maybe), but again the distribution of traits wouldn't be changed by the amount of pollen produced or the location of the flower. A roll of the dice is a roll of the dice for any pollen grain on any male flower on the same plant.

12/2/2010 1:53:38 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Back to the original topic -- I don't know if this will help or confuse things more but I found a diagram showing meiosis (the production of eggs and pollen/sperm)

http://www.ba-education.com/dna/meiosis.jpg

The important point here is that the cell at the top of the diagram is genetically identical at any place in an individual plant (or clone of that plant). The chromosomal mixing process (crossing-over) is what produces the distribution of traits among the gametes (eggs or pollen). Here's a better picture of what happens in crossing-over:

http://www.biotechlearn.org.nz/focus_stories/evolved_enzymes/images/chromosomes_crossing_over

Ok back to the first diagram - skip down to the bottom 4 cells and you have a set of haploid (1 set of chromosomes) gametes from one diploid (2 sets of chromosomes) cell. Repeat that process until all the pollen is made - every time mixing up differently - and you get the distribution of traits across all the pollen produced.

Basically this just puts some picture to the earlier explanation. There's a lot of detail that gets glossed over, but this is it in a nutshell.

12/2/2010 2:49:22 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Here's another link just on basic Mendelian genetics:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm

If you followed that - here's another webpage that gives a useful example of quantitative genetics (which is most like what AG weight is like, I think.) In your mind replace tobacco with AG and replace height with fruit weight. Recognize that this is a serious over-simplification of the complexities involved, but still a useful construct to think about the issues:

http://staff.jccc.net/pdecell/evolution/polygen.html#example2

12/2/2010 3:03:12 AM

Germany

I full agree to Joze and bathabitat. All flowers and males on a individual plant have the same genetic possibilities/ probabilities. So if you pollinate two flowers on the same plant with pollen from the same pollinator plant , the offspring of these two pumpkins is has equal capabilities . Any experiences with the offspring of such "twin pumpkins" ( I think 1142 Kooten has such a twin and probably that old 9xx Mombert with three pkn on one plant.)
The capabilities between reverse crosses of the same two plants should also be very similar, the difference could be the maternal effects ( some extra influence by the female plant) Are there any experiences how big these influence is ? I´m thinking of couples like 500/1068 Wallace, 998/1231 Pukos, 1161/1566 Rodonis ?

12/2/2010 7:04:28 AM

Deer Park, WI

Having slept on Eddy's and Dean's comments regarding dominant pollen, I believe I may have had a bit of an epiphany...a thought process each of these gentlemen already realized.

For us science geeks, when we see the word "dominant" we automatically think genetics. The word is jargon in the field and hard for us to think about it from a non-genetic implication.

So lemme take a stab- Male flowers stemming from the main vine tend to have more vigor. This is NOT a function of genetics, rather nutrient availability and hormone signalling. Structures (flowers, tendrils, leaves) on the main highway are privy to more of the goodies that make them grow big and fast.

Perhaps what is being surmised is that this apparently more vigorous flower/pollen offers some advantage...more aggressive pollen tube growth, more "viable" pollen, etc. I do remain resolute in my belief, however, that there is no genetic advantage here. And that's the distinguishing point...the genetics (DNA) are pre-programmed and consistent across all flowers. The structures which house the DNA (pollen, flowers, etc) are subject to environmental, locational, and genetic factors, thereby lending an argument that main vine pollen may somehow be superior.

12/2/2010 8:01:19 AM

Deer Park, WI

Wayne- a multitude of factors ultimately determine how many viable seeds come out of a pumpkin. The vast majority of baby pumpkins are pre-programmed with hundreds of unfertilized ovules (eggs/seeds). Here are some of the things that can go wrong which lead to poor seed count. The problem is, we have no way of testing which issue may be transpiring to create poor seed counts.

-poor pollen viability (lazy swimmers, in man's terms hehe)
-poor egg viability
-incompatible DNA matching (sperm doesnt play nice with egg, fail to combine)
-window of receptivity didnt exactly match pollination timing (chris pollinated in the AM, but the female made have had its on plan about when it was receptive...sound familiar??????? pumpkins & people are not all that different)
-temperature was not optimal. (too hot, the pollen breaks down and cannot perform. too cold, the pollen tubes dont grow fast enough to reach the receptive eggies...again, sound familiar? hehe)
-fertilization occurred as normal, but perhaps a hormonal shift in the fruit delayed or inhibited normal growth of the seeds.

Since 1810 had 300 seeds in the cavity, the female did its job in setting the stage. but 1000 things can go wrong from there that ultimately leave us 1810 empty handed in spring. argh.

12/2/2010 8:14:21 AM

Ham Lake, Minnesota

This might be of interest in this conversation;
"Boron deficiency can cause the failure of the pollen tube to function properly. This results in kernel embryos not being pollinated..."
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/B_Basics.htm

12/2/2010 9:01:15 AM

Ham Lake, Minnesota

B is mobile, so could there be a correlation between growers who had a real wash out season of rain and low seed count on top of other factors?

12/2/2010 9:04:48 AM

Minnesota

Joe, your nailing so many good points i dont know where to start.

Like you said, the flowers on the main will be larger due to its location by getting the most food and energy, they are nice and large and very healthy looking but so do the terts and quarts if the plant is pruned way back and they are encouraged to start growing early enough in the season capiatalizing on the best growth period of the season.

What im trying to hit on is that every flower(male or female) is different based on the chromosome arrangement. The very first male to show on the plant is the most dominant. the very first female is the most dominant, as with the very first vine and the very first leaf. I think everyone will agree with me when i say that a pumpkin is different from a vine and a tendril is not a male flower or a root is not a leaf. But, all of the things i mentioned have the same exact identicle dna. The arrangement or pairing of each set of chromosomes in the order of dominance is what makes each and every single flower, pumpkin or vine different. So using multiple males or males lower down the dominance chain will lead you further from characteristics of the plant that you might want to use as a pollinator. Does this mean that a male flower from a main vine is better than a male on a secondary or tertiary........NO. It only means that the males on the main vine will be closer to the characteristics of the plant your using as a pollinator.

12/2/2010 10:27:35 AM

Minnesota

A friend of mine grew a 1446eaton selfed plant of mine. He called me at the end of July to ask me what in the world of a plant did i give him and did i do anything special to this plant. I said no, i was hoping it would be a real special seed because it was a selfed world record holder. He told me i better get out there to see this. I went out to look and couldnt beleive it. He had 5 pumpkins set. 2 very nice orange, 2 very nice 848 looking green squash, and 1 pure white pumpkin. The truth is that all of these have the exact same dna but look different because of their place on the domainance tree.

All i can say is that there is a roadmap for the basics of how all this works in a simple form and it should be researched by all growers as much as possible in the offseason but when the real growing season comes along, do what AL E. and many other heavy hitters have done when this first started to take off,,,,,,,take good notes and look for clues and coincidences to what might play roles in your success or failures each year.

12/2/2010 10:27:52 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Great point on the boron. At least, this is a factor we can influence with help from a soil test. I wonder if we could correlate boron levels to the number of undeveloped seeds in a fruit! That would be an awesome finding!

If I remember correctly, boron is a trace mineral. You don't want too much, but if it's missing, that's bad. For a lot of growers, I think they see one fruit that was full of seeds and another that had very little. It could be that one spot in the patch is very low in boron, and that leads to low viable seed count.

Well, I hope we can find some evidence to support this!

12/2/2010 10:34:22 AM

President - GPC

This is priceless. Thank You...time to digest..Dean C....what you described....on that plant....is like finding the mosquito in an amber nodule...in Jurassic Park....

For those of your interest, you can copy and paste this verbose to a word document and re read over and over...creating our own......AG Genetics for dummieZ...

Email me anyone if you dont have that capabilties....Ill send you what we have so far.....Thank You

12/2/2010 10:50:54 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Dean C - what you describe sounds like a "sport", which I described before. I'm not doubting that the plant produced what you say, but it has nothing to do with "genetic domanance". Probably a particularly "sporty" plant for some reason. Out of the 1000's grown we would expect some, but usually nothing for most people to even worry about.

12/2/2010 11:16:27 AM

Massillon, Ohio

Big time THANKS to all who have contributed so far. Such facinating information!....even if I did eat 1/2 a bag of chocolate chips while reading bathabitat's link to Quantitative Genetics! We need to make a list of practical applications from what we've learned, to use in our planning and in our patches, to accomplish our goals. You guys are great!!

12/2/2010 11:33:53 AM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

But this is more common than you think.
It happens on every plant, there is a difference from vine to vine on the outcome of the fruit, Look at the 1230/1016 Daletas, Both grown on the same plant. If what you claim is true, then these 2 fruit should have been identical in appearance, but their not.
I grew an 810 dill, and let 5 fruit set on the plant, each and every one was different in appearance and color, they went from football shape to basketball shape, the colors were from a cream to a dark orange.
If you get into the 935 lloyd linage, especially the early ones, you could almost be gauranteed to have a green fruit somewhere on that plant, but generally on a side vine, and at least the 5th or 6th vine out from the stump.
If you get into the lloyd linage more and you look at the offsprings, you can see differences in color in the fruit even on the main vine depending on how far out they were set, So if these trait are happening in the females, it has to be happening in the males.

12/2/2010 11:43:30 AM

Rhode Island

im with ice

12/2/2010 12:06:23 PM

El Paso TX.

@the WIZ -- Using Firefox you can also just right click in the thread and select save page as - and select a filename and set to save as Type - web page complete (in the save as type drop down box) and save a local .htm version of the entire page to your system - then just double click it later and it will open the document in the firefox browser so you can read it just like it was being viewed on the site. (not sure if explorer offers the same option but it might)

12/2/2010 12:12:41 PM

Western NY

Eddy - I saw that with the 1092 Burke, at least with the shape. Main vine fruit were that nice acorn shape, the side vine ones were watermelons. Now, the real trick would have been to self both shapes (ideally with the closest available male), then grow out a ton of plants from each. I don't believe that there is enough variation from within the plant that you would see a noticeable difference.

However, even if there is a .0001% offset, perhaps taking this path is something that will pay off in another 20 years.

12/2/2010 12:29:21 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Variation in gene expression could occur for various environmental reasons, without a change in DNA or chromosomal arrangement. All leaves or stems or flowers are not physically identical. I think most people know that intuitively. Same thing applies to fruit. Access to nutrients and water can be different at different places on the plant. Temperature and moisture stress at various times during the growth and development probably also affect it. I do tend to agree that fruit color seems a bit hard to imagine being environmentally controlled, but I would look there before assuming a change in DNA.

However, the frequency of "sports" could be higher in some instances. Maybe you ARE seeing "sports". If early 935's were particularly "sporty" that could be what led to some bigger than expected fruits. It is possible. "Sports" can be caused by environmental stress too.

In any case this doesn't support the idea of "pollen dominance". I wouldn't be concerned, but if one is worried about "sports" affecting the pollen, you'd want pollen from a male flower close to the fruit since the genetics there would be more likely to be the same as the fruit would be. I wouldn't ever miss a pollination because of that though.

12/2/2010 12:34:29 PM

Minnesota

801.5 stelts i grew back in 2003 grew a double vine right out of the base. there never was a vine that went double or ribbon, it just grew two main vines right from the base. i couldnt decide which one to keep so i kept them both and let mother nature figure it out for me. One main vine grew a typical orange 801 fruit which self aborted after it hit 300lbs and on the other main vine were all gourds. What was so significant was the fact that the male flowers on the vines growing the gourds were all gourd flowers, not pumpkin. AND on some of the secondaries and tertiaries on that gourd vine, there were other things that were growing and i cant even tell you if they were squash or gourd because they had watermelon shaped leaves but the vines with the watermelon looking leaves had yet a 3rd different type of male flower and fruit. On the vines that only had one female to be set..........that same vine made sure the female had a male on the vine ready when she was.

12/2/2010 12:44:05 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Bathabitat, You seem to really know this stuff, so can I ask a question, and can you answer it for guys like me(challenged in the fine Sciences)
How can a plant produce different females/males and still have the same DNA profile?
Just want to learn

12/2/2010 12:50:25 PM

Colorado

Great thread-weve got scientists that know genetics and we have got growers who have observed some unexpected phenomenon with AG plants.Ag's are a tough subject cause they take up lots of room and need 150 days to grow.Mendel used peas-he could grow 100 plants in a small area and three crops in a season.We dont know how many genes contribute to that monster fruit that looks like what were after and holds together.So were always going to get surprizes when we try to breed for the next great seed.The surprize factor keeps it interesting yet frustrating.

12/2/2010 12:51:33 PM

Colorado

Hey,If atlantic giant growing/breeding was predictable we wouldnt be having this discussion

12/2/2010 12:56:45 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I've always thought that color might be influenced in some degree to the conditions, maybe a certain element in the soil can "nourish" the fruit into producing more or less color. It seems that some growers have "better luck" in getting the color. It's not all attributable to environment, of course, but maybe some of it is. (???) (That's a question, not a statement!)

As to genetic variations within males and females on the same plant, sure they are different to some degree, but who is to say which part of the plant got the best to pass on to the next generation? If we could predict which part WE would most like to pass on, we would have to assume that the plant agrees with us and also "KNOWS" what it is, and how to select it. I don't think the plant knows that, any more than we can select that we want a boy or a girl when we do that effort of procreation.

Just my two cents... ;-) I love these discussions.

On the other hand, here is an interesting thought. Our view of the actual pumpkin is that they are genetically equivalent to other pumpkins on the plant. The only genetically different cells are the actual ovules, the seeds. The pumpkins are inherited from the mother seed. BUT... We KNOW that some pumpkins have 4 lobes and some have 5. !!! How do we explain that?? I've always wondered that one, how can some fruits have different numbers of nodes, etc., on the same plant? Where is this determined?

12/2/2010 1:00:40 PM

Pemberton, BC

Wow my head izz spinning...but this is an awesome thread!

12/2/2010 1:24:27 PM

Ham Lake, Minnesota

You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into bigpumpkins.com

I agree with Cliff on the color influence based on soil conditions theory. I've noticed no matter what seed I grow, I always get nice orange in one plot, and always salmon color in the other.

12/2/2010 1:37:32 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I think I kind of addressed Eddyz's question in the first part of my previous post, but another way to say it is that genes interact with thier environment or you might see it in textbooks as G x E.

If you want more details, mechanisms, and specifics this link on Regulation of Gene Expression goes over a lot of stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_activation

As I think about this a little, a good discussion example might be those part light green / part salmon fruit. There must be something about the interaction of the genetics and the environment that turns salmon on/off or green on/off (maybe it's temperature regime or day length or etc. etc.). Under the right conditions we might expect that some fruit on that plant could end up all green and some all salmon because of some unknown environmental cue. That phenomenon could explain some of the observed weirdness in fruit color (and shape/size/lobes etc.) all on the same genetic individual.

With that gourd story, I wouldn't rule out that the seed was originated from rouge gourd pollen making a C. maxima/C. ficifolia (or whatever) hybrid.

12/2/2010 1:44:15 PM

Deer Park, WI

Profound, Alex.

"Epigenetics" is the term used to describe differences in appearance that are not the result of DNA changes, rather environmental influences that turn genes on and off. Color would be a great example of an "epigentically" controlled factor. It is fact, not speculation, that "phenotypes" (appearances) are equally driven by environment and genes working in concert. Hence, the observations noted above by various growers regarding differences in colors and shapes on various parts of the plant are, in my mind, epigenetic observations. Where various environmental factors (nutrient availability, etc) are influencing the activity of genes (DNA) that control shape, color, and other phenotypic characteristics.

Eddy- understanding how a plant can all have the same DNA and yet produce males and females with unique DNA is a very deep concept and one of the most fascinating aspects of nature.

Another analogy- Consider a pumpkin plant a combination of 5 red dice. Lets say this plant's DNA sequence is a dice roll of 5-5-5-5-5. Every leaf, vine, root on that plant has the combination 5-5-5-5-5. When the plant creates eggs and pollen, it is equivalent to rolling the dice. Now, imagine each egg and pollen grain a combination of the numbers 1-6, like a set of dice. One pollen grain becomes 5-5-5-5-1. another becomes 5-5-5-5-2. All combinations of 1-6 are possible for both pollen and eggs. But stop and think about what color the dice are...Red. Color of the dice doesnt change when you roll them. When you cross this pumpkin, you match up another set of dice...could be green, brown, yellow. Point being, a different plant is a different color of dice. You roll these dice and get another set of numbers, 1-6, that partner up with the parent plant. This is genetic diversity in an metaphorical nutshell.

12/2/2010 2:20:46 PM

Western NY

I was waiting for someone to mention the epigenetic connection, Joe. I think that (perhaps in an overly broad sense) ties the whole thing together. Though the majority of this discussion has been based primarily on possible variances within the plant, the epigenetic factors causing this (if indeed there are variances) definitely do produce changes on a generation - to - generation basis. I'll paste from an email I sent to another grower last month:

"I also owe you an answer to your question a while back about my response to an epigenetics question on the gvgo boards, so here goes.........

I think that epigenetics is beginning to play a part in the increased weight gains over the last few years, and will continue on for a while. Essentially, the theory is that the treatment that we give the plants affects the genetic expression in the subsequent generations. I hate comparing plants and animals, but there was a mouse study where a pregnant female was given a high dose of B12 vitamins. The offspring were above average in health even a few generations down the line. So, some of these specialty fertilizers that we're getting into may very well be affecting seed quality, perhaps at a compounding rate. I believe the Agro-K products had a hand in getting that ball rolling. Some of the RTI products are the next step. There are some still to be discovered, I'm sure.

*IF* there is anything to it, which seeds would we be looking at? Agro-K really took off around 03-06. Of the guys I know that were using it, a few of their seeds come to mind - 998 Pukos, 1231 Pukos, 1370 Rose. 998 did well enough certainly, but perhaps the lesser known story may be the 1231, especially if plant treatment has a lasting effect down the line. The 1231 did produce the 1161, after all.

So, when selecting seeds, I will be heavily considering the treatment that the particular plant got if I'm sticking an unproven seed in. I do know I'm putting a bunch of my own seeds i

12/2/2010 2:38:51 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Ok, that helps, still foggy, but!!!
So the plant produces a male at 6 feet out, Dice roll 5555
Then at the next junction its a female dice roll 5554 or what ever but should be very close to the last one, etc.
So you then have a male 4 ft on the third side vine, dice roll 5432, and the next junction on the same side vine is a female, dice roll 5431.
Each and every juction should in theory be closely related to the one before it and the one after it, and as you venture out farther from the centre, your dice roll will change more, So therfore the first male at 6 ft. dice roll 5555, and lets say, the male farther down the line, let's use 16 ft. dice roll 5190, are actually more so sibbling, than the male at 6ft and the next one at 8 ft. dice roll 5553, where they would be closer to twins.
Does that make sense?

12/2/2010 2:40:23 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Wow, I'm going to put RUSH 2112 "Twilight Zone" up on my iPod and dream about 2000 pound shiny electric orange pumpkins for a while.

12/2/2010 3:24:58 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

My patch generally has six spots for pumpkins. I have one portion that I tend to refer to as the "orange spot". Every brightly colored orange fruit I've grown comes from this spot or the spot next to it. Even the 1505 Holland that I grew last year, it turned out much more orange than I was expecting. At mid-season it was bright yellow and looked like it was heading for bright shiny orange, but it cantalouped in the end.

Conversely, I have another spot which tends to produce white or salmon fruit. This is all getting very interesting.

12/2/2010 3:41:17 PM

Deer Park, WI

Eddy- you are getting close!

You are still trying to influence probability with proximity. Do me a favor and please detach the two.

If the first female rolls at 5-5-5-5-5, there is an equal chance that the next male or female will roll a 1-1-1-1-1 or any other combination under the sun.

Simply because the parent, the first female, or the first male is a certain combination, this combination will have absolutely no effect on any other combination. why? because when it comes to creating pollen and eggs, the dice are rolled all over again.

Very simply stated, if i throw five dice at your feet and then walk 10 feet away and throw them again, does YOUR POSITION have any influence on the numbers rolled? Of course not. Same exact principle applies in pollen and egg creation.

12/2/2010 3:55:28 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Yes I did have that figured out, As you said, it's a roll of the dice, But you see if you would have agreed with me, then it would have validated my theory.

I totally understand a lot more now, and thank all on this thread, But I still have reservations on trying to grasp your concept.

12/2/2010 4:45:13 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Where this helps me the most is, over the last 10 years, there have been several attempts at a recreation of a monster seed, like the 1068 Wallace for instance. And I couldn't understand why it was never done with any success.
If the original 1068 was polinated with a 5432 female onto a 2345 female, The odds of recreating that same cross next to if not impossible.
So my idea of growing a 1231 Pukos and 1450 Wallace is not too smart.

12/2/2010 4:50:51 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

oops should have read a 5432 male onto a 2345 female

12/2/2010 4:52:07 PM

Germany

I hadn´t readed much here.

Am i right if i say:
"It is best if i use only 1 male flower for pollination"?

so there isn´t that much difference if i plant many seeds out of that cross?

12/2/2010 8:03:06 PM

Ohio

Kurb,, not being smart, but your question is what this post is mostly about, if you read this thread it will give you the answer your looking for.

Great thread Joe!

12/2/2010 8:20:49 PM

Connecticut

OK I got to this party a little late (not the first time).

I noticed “The WiZ” has requested my input so here are my thoughts…

I think we have to remember that we are dealing with a sexual method of reproduction which inherently mixes genes to create some degree of variability. So, trying to make every seeds the same is next to impossible. One male flower has enough genetic variability as two male flowers. Each pollen grain is unique.

Having said that, there are clearly seeds that seem to perform better than others, this is because the overall genetic package is expressing the traits we deem as good and select for. So, ideally we are carrying over the good genes and forgetting or selecting against the not so desirable genes.

Now, this is part of the reason behind my clone experiment to at least provide everyone with the same set of genetics to try and answer some of the basic questions to these giant pumpkins. Now, while the shapes grown off the clones were similar they were not exactly the same because again each female flower received its own unique ‘gene jumble’. The female flowers were all pulling cards from the same deck but each ended up with a different hand. (Hope that makes some sense.)

I am hoping to be able to increase the clone sample size in 2011 to again help answer some questions. I can say based on the small sample preliminary results I had thought that % to chart was influenced by the soil but the genes may play a bigger role than I originally thought. Soil to gene influence may be more like a 25/75 split. All of the clones brought to a scale went 9-16% heavy and the parent plant’s pumpkin went 11.6% heavy.

Again this was a small sample size but still interesting point to note for sure.

I hope the above is easy to follow but if there are any follow-up questions just let me know.

12/2/2010 9:01:43 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

While we are considering a environmental component to popularly held beliefs of genetics controlling certain traits (like color), I'd like to postulate that flat vines have an environmental influence as well. About 20% of my plants go flat on me, and it's worse when I have cold spring temps. For several years I've been suspicious, and now I think it's all starting to come together.

So, I'm finally going to give in and buy heaters for the patch.

12/2/2010 9:31:16 PM

Minnesota

Matt, were you making your clones by rooting vine sections or did you use a leaf??

12/2/2010 10:32:19 PM

President - GPC

JD,
Thank You....MoZZila…...we going to work on posting this thread in a web format for perpetuity....on our site..... my daughter is the real web genius…..Keep it going folks……

12/3/2010 8:26:11 AM

Deer Park, WI

Sure you want to egg this on WiZ....surface has only been scratched.

Ask and ye shall receive...

Further complicating the already overly complex topic of genetics is the consideration that some DNA is inherited exclusively from the mother.

*shriek*

There are small pieces of DNA, contained in the mitochondria (little energy factories in cells) and chloroplasts (the structures that perform photosynthesis) which are passed on only through the mother. This topic is currently beyond my understanding and may or may not have any relevance to our hobby.

When i originally penned the hybrid vigor articles back in '01, i noted that when the Lloyd genetics were on the mother side of the equation, average fruit size was higher than when the Lloyd lineage was on the father side. Way too many variables to draw a conclusion that this is maternal DNA superiority, but knowing this exists, it may be worth considering and exploring further.

12/3/2010 9:53:28 AM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Joze, sorry but here I go again lol
getting back to the use of multiple males.
Although it's all a crap shoot with the roll of the dice, If you use one pollinator, your end result for the next generation should in fact be more stable. Weather the seed is good or bad, it should be much more of a consistent producer, in theory anyway.

Out of this single male pollination, if you end up with "the silver bullet", your chances should be greated to get multiple bullets, where by using several males, your percentage should in fact drop

12/3/2010 10:08:13 AM

Harrisville, Pa

Pap did you use a single polinator when you polinated the 1068?

12/3/2010 10:38:21 AM

El Paso TX.

iceman -- thing is that so called "silver bullet" is not the entire male flower but a single pollen grain in that flower -- so whether using multiple flowers or a single flower the chance of getting that "silver bullet" grain would be the same since each individual grain of pollen that the male plant produces has the same percentage chance of being that special roll of the dice. (kind of like a roulette game that has hit red 20 times in a row -- the next spin still has the same exact chance of winding up red as any other spin of the wheel (sure it seems ot would have a better chance of hitting black but the math proves it doesn't !!)

12/3/2010 11:20:03 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Eddyz - This seems like the same question that has been asked and answered. The answer is still no - assuming no "sports". Is there a nuance I'm missing?

One pollinator plant (with one or many male flowers) - would be more predictable than two pollinator plants (even if they were the same seed - say 2 different 1161's). Is that what you're asking?

12/3/2010 11:23:18 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Have mercy on them Joze. :) Mitochondria and chloroplasts do have their own DNA and they do come from only the mother. I'd say, in general, we can't really tell any difference. Almost all (if not all) of the biggest pumpkins come from the same 3 or 4 maternal lines and all 3 or 4 are in the 1500 to 1600 lbers.

845 Bobier/723 Bobier from 935 Lloyd is in a majority of them

Notably though:
898 Knauss from 1007 Brown was the maternal line for 1689 Jutras

846 Calai from 801 Stelts is in all the 1161 offspring

I was thinking there was one more but didn't notice it in my quick look at aggc. (anyone else know?)

Besides the mitochondria and chloroplasts (which I'd say is probably a non-issue at this point given the bottleneck and success of all 3), for the rest of the nuclear DNA (regular DNA) it doesn't matter at all genetically speaking which parent was "mother" and which was "father". The seed gets 50% from each and goes. (in humans it does matter some because of sex linked genes, but pumpkins are hermaphrodites)

12/3/2010 12:08:13 PM

Ohio

Joze, you got mail,,lol, let me know if you got it, you will get some what of a kick out of it.

12/3/2010 12:29:15 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Iceman, let me take a stab at it, using some of the analogies posted earlier. In the dice analogy, I'm not sure if it was clear, but the flower isn't rolling the dice... each individual grain of pollen is rolling the dice. Each individual grain is different, hence, a different result of the dice for each and every grain of pollen.

So, each individual grain in one flower has rolled the dice, and each individual grain in another flower has rolled the dice. The end result is that they are all equally random. All of the pollen in one flower is the same randomness as the pollen in another flower. That's pretty much a fact.

(The only way it could be different, is if one flower had "weighted dice!" But I don't believe that is, or even could be, the case. It would be nice, I'd take that flower with me to Vegas.)

I think the only way to identify superior seeds (Silver Bullets) is to plant a representative sample (i.e. 15 seeds) under virtually identical conditions, and select the best, and plant that one next year.

I also want to thank everyone for this great, civil, discussion!

12/3/2010 12:39:26 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Bathabita, Yes probably right in the fact this is already cover.

Now I just spent some time on the phone with a scientist from biogeneticservices out of South Dakota. I have set up a test for this with him in the summer. I'll get by Buddy Greg K to send him male flowers in late June and then again in the middle of July, from both mains and secondary's, all from the same plant, and he will do geno type testing on them.
This gentleman backed up everything Joze and Bathabitat has said, BUT, he doesn't rule out that there may be a difference in the flowers because there has never been a complete test just on AG's.
I might have to auction a couple seeds to get this done LOL But I think this would be worth while finding out.
Is there something else we should check into ?????

What ya think

12/3/2010 12:45:02 PM

Western NY

Awesome, Eddy!

I think one of the other big questions that (as far as I know) has not been answered is the chromosome count for AGs.

12/3/2010 1:47:30 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Eddyz, I think what the gentleman means it that he'd be happy to take your money. (just a thought, lol.)

Seriously though, you clearly have a genuine interest in this topic. If it takes a little data to convince you, go for it. I'd suggest that you do several plants though (from the same seed maybe or different seeds). One main flr, one side flr at the two dates from as many different plants as you want to spend. You'd probably be wasting $ on the within plant tests (as we've been discussing in this thread), but the between plant tests would be really interesting, especially if there were some sibs and some distant relatives (squash maybe) in the mix.

As far as other stuff to check into (assuming you're footing the bill, lol) ... I would have an outfit develop a genetic screening test for the set of genes (or genetic markers) that correlate with the biggest pumpkins. Then we could all sprout way too many seedlings, test them (again assuming you're footing the bill, lol) and only plant out the highest probability ones. This is basically a pre-outplant test for likely silver bullets. Not actually my area of expertise, but I understand the technologies to accomplish this are getting better and better. Still probably too costly though - one day maybe.

12/3/2010 1:52:44 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Andy
He did mention chromosome counts,
Bathabitat, If we as a group can put forward a few tests that would help the sport, then we can do this, I'm not saying to spend a stupid amount of money.
If we should test more than 1 plant and see if there is a difference etc then we should look at that avenue.
I still think there are mutations happening in the flowers themselves from different areas of the plant, not in all c maximas but in GP's specifically

12/3/2010 2:23:22 PM

canal winchester ohio

would this be part of the reason that re-makes 95% of the time don't pan out like the original.

12/3/2010 2:28:51 PM

Colorado

cool Eddy. I look forward to see what the results show.

12/3/2010 3:00:53 PM

Lexington, Ky

Now how fun will it be when we all can grow 1,800 pounders?!

12/3/2010 4:06:00 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I'd like to see this... one plant grown from a seed that is one of our typical crosses, and another plant that is of a seed that has been selfed for at least three generations. Then compare the variability of the pollen from each.

12/3/2010 4:27:24 PM

Scotty, I developed a cheap and easy silver bullet test years ago.

Place all the seeds you have or receive in clear, zip lock bags. Whichever seeds the mice tear through the bags and eat were the good ones.

12/3/2010 5:22:55 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Neal, I'm trying a similar method. My wife's new puppy liked to snag a few seeds from my drying screen now and then...Probably the 1 ton-ers...they're the tastiest. ha ha.

12/3/2010 5:50:00 PM

Germany

some posts here are referring to remakes. Perhaps to clarify it : Imagine my fathers brother had married my mothers sister. Their (virtual) son would be my cousin ( from both sides, paternal and maternal ). You could expect some similarities between us but not very much. In Pumpkin Growing we say to that cousin "remake". The probability that the remake has the qualities of the original is very low.

12/3/2010 6:42:50 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

Wow, Eddie way to take the initiative on that! This could have a profound effect on AG knowledge and the future of AG's!

12/3/2010 6:57:43 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Regaurding benny_p's post: Here's an interesting link on relatedness I posted in another thred:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship#Calculation

12/3/2010 9:50:10 PM

Colorado

If we think that "The odds of recreating a great cross are next to if not impossible..." based on the discussion here, then how do we explain the multiple times it HAS happened? for example: 1385 Jutras and 1180 pukos (same cross, great results)... 998 pukos and 991 urena (same situation)... 845 and 723 bobiers, etc.

I agree that scientifically it seems very unlikely to recreate the "exact" perfect cross again, but in the three examples above, each of those crosses was remade, on average, about 10 times. in each case, a seed with the similar cross has turned into a great seed. based on that limited data set, the odds of making a really good recreation are about 1 in 10, which is far better than next to impossible.

Perhaps the idea of growing a 1231 Pukos and 1450 Wallace is actually wise, given that it might give you about a 10% chance of creating something similar (although not exact)to the current best seed in the world.

12/4/2010 12:22:05 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Hey Pete, That's some good insight. I think it's a question of objectives.

As you state it, attempting a remake gives you "about a 10% chance of creating something similar". Suppose it's even better than that, say 50:50 chance, it seems like bad odds just to get back to where we've already been. I just don't think "something similar" is what our goal ought to be. It's not where I'd like to be.

12/4/2010 1:34:52 AM

Indiana

these things mutate in the vine tips occasionally

12/4/2010 2:38:06 AM

Germany

@ pete : Over generations of selecting the best ones , 998 and 1068 have collect the best genes in their gene pool. So if you pollinate 998 with 1068 ( or reverse) you are "rolling the dice" out of that superior gene pool, not of an average AG or C.maxima. So you can expect a better-than-average offspring of that cross ( and 1385,1180,1309,etc.. are much better than average ! ) and a similarity between that offspring, but nearly identic offspring ( remake, "copy") is very unexpectable.

Question to the scientists : Are AGs diploid ?

Thanks Benny

12/4/2010 3:39:15 AM

Germany

The idea of growing and mating a 1231 and 1450 is very wise, as the genepools of this seeds have proven their quality and a new combination of these genes may create something better !

12/4/2010 3:42:30 AM

Dummer Twp - Ontario

Not to add further to things, why then do many people say we are waisting our time putting old genetics back in (as a pollinator) from world record pumpkins from say 10-15 years ago when in their day they could grow monsters. Do many of you not think that if say, Bill Greer or George Lloyd had the techniques we use today they could have grown 1400-1800 pounds with their experience and dedication and sites like these that have info at the touch of a button.

12/4/2010 5:39:49 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

This has been a very interesting thread to say the least, but I tend to agree with Kirk. I think that, with the right grower, seed, and growing conditions, a monster can be grown off an older seed or a cross between an older seed and a newer seed.

12/4/2010 7:25:30 AM

President - GPC

I agree with LMPete...well at least this time....some men think and say why...other men dream and say....."Why Not?"....itZ just how my little mind thinkZ....of course I wear a wiZ hat too.
Great thread here for sure.....
GeneticZ for dummieZ and smartieZ....

12/4/2010 7:42:12 AM

Deer Park, WI

C. maxima has diploid chromosomal pattern. Evidence seems to be somewhat conflicting, most reports suggest 40 chromosomes in this species.

12/4/2010 8:15:50 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I only went back 4 years but this is by far the most posts on this particular message board. I don't know if this one is # 2 but this one from 2007 had a familiar theme.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=230422

12/4/2010 9:25:28 AM

Annapolis Valley Nova Scotia

benny_p wrote "some posts here are referring to remakes. Perhaps to clarify it : Imagine my fathers brother had married my mothers sister. Their (virtual) son would be my cousin ( from both sides, paternal and maternal ). You could expect some similarities between us but not very much. In Pumpkin Growing we say to that cousin "remake". The probability that the remake has the qualities of the original is very low."

If that is true, then all the seeds from the same Pumpkin must also be in the same situation, cousins would be the results, if that is the case why do certain seeds seem to reliably out perform others? Or am I missing something?

12/4/2010 9:39:03 AM

Germany

We give the seeds in a pumpkin the name of a pumkin (944 Preis for example) but genetically they are not the same. They are full sisters like a litter of piglets. Half of their genes coming from the father, half from the mother.Which 50 % of the mother ( or father) is a random drawing (or rolling the dice) So some have bad ones, some have better genes. And this better genepool is the base for the "rolling the dice" for the next generation. geneti674, for e

12/4/2010 10:42:07 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I'd say crossing the 1231 and 1450 (and 998.6 and 1086, etc.) WAS very wise in 2007 maybe 2008. Next year will be 2011. I think pap wrote on a recent post "keep moving forward". I'm in that camp. What are the new 1231 and 1450's?

12/4/2010 11:30:22 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

In "Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties" by Deppe p. 189 lists C. maxima as 2n=40 also 2n=40,44,48 (not sure what that means), I'd go with 2n=40 like Joze said.

If the underlying question about diploids is "are AG's still C. maxima?" I have some insight. For fun in 09 I did a cross of AG with banana squash (and reciprocal), last season I grew those varietal hybrids and crossed with banana and AG again. Both produced viable seed. By that standard definition AG's are still C. maxima.

12/4/2010 12:15:45 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

BTW Wiz if you haven't seen that book it's pretty good.

I also have an old copy of "principles of plant breeding" by Allard that has a couple chapters that are really good. It's from 1960, but since we're not doing any new fancy stuff, (yet), it's perfect for thinking about the AG situation. There are newer editions, but I haven't seen them. Plus they are $150.

12/4/2010 12:30:02 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Joze
You mention 40 chromosomes, can you elaboate on what a chromosome does, as far future offspring, and is there any significance to 40, again I have a very limited understanding, and would likt to know more

12/4/2010 12:54:28 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Now as far as moving forward, I also agree to a point, Now take the 1161, 1231 X 1450 cross. Was that the best from that pairing, could it be that the next cross of the same 2 could be even better? When you already have a pairing do that great you should do it again.
We're going to hit a wall at some point with going forward and we very likely will have to back track and bring back old genetics

12/4/2010 12:59:00 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Eddyz, For our purposes, chromosomes are basically just the place where genes reside. The number of chromosomes (or the size of the genome) doesn't correlate with anything we care about.

Here's a link about the human genome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome

At the bottom of the "overview" section is a comparison between a library and a genome. I think that might help explain the relationship among all the genetic parts. Also there's a picture on the right showing some chromosome pairs in humans.

12/4/2010 3:38:29 PM

Somerset,Ky

If indeed an AG has 40 chromosomes as a diploid there
would be two sets of 20 chromosomes. Each chromosome
has its own perpose. Where it be Vigor, Fruit color,
shape, Seed color and I also think very strongly heavy
to the chart. So we as plant breeders need to do is keep
selecting the best modifiers as we are now doing. It's
a numbers game some one will get the magic bullett and
go 2,000 #. Fruit color and seed color are much easier
to predict.

12/4/2010 4:24:25 PM

Minnesota

c'mon eddy..............just roll the dice!! LOL!!

12/4/2010 5:00:29 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

John I think you made confusing typo there. Chromosomes are definitely not arranged by purpose. It should read each GENE has its own purpose. (I'm guessing that was just a typo.)

12/4/2010 5:21:03 PM

Wi

If the stolen seed theory is true, mine must have been platinum. Something got all of mine in one night! Learned an important lesson in having a screen on top too:)

12/4/2010 8:13:23 PM

Somerset,Ky

Sorry each gene has it's own purpose. I know in Iris
diploids have 24 chromosomes and 2 sets of 12. In
tetraploids they have 48 chromosomes in 4 sets of 12.
What if we doubled the chromosome count? If the change
worked of course we would have to self it. Could be
nice.

12/5/2010 8:07:59 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Hey John, I think I saw mention of trying for a tetraploid in one of the pumpkin growing how-to books. There are a couple chemicals that will induce polyploidy during normal cell division. They are pretty nasty to handle though, and getting the dose right is tricky. I agree though, could be interesting.

Here's a link on polyploidy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyploidy

12/6/2010 10:51:08 PM

Mulino, Oregon

Scott, I hope you are planning on joining us in Niagara. You're kind of committed now. lol

Jim

12/9/2010 5:53:03 PM

Barrie ON

"some posts here are referring to remakes. Perhaps to clarify it : Imagine my fathers brother had married my mothers sister. Their (virtual) son would be my cousin ( from both sides, paternal and maternal ). You could expect some similarities between us but not very much. In Pumpkin Growing we say to that cousin "remake". The probability that the remake has the qualities of the original is very low."
It should have similar qualities to each of the grandparents averaged over all the seeds planted. I have taken the pictures from all the pumpkins grown from the 1385.5 Jutras. I have then grouped them by fruit shape alone under 1 of the grandparent’s pictures. The vast majority were placed under the 898 Knauss 2001. If you wanted to do the same exercise for color it may it may show the dominant trait in another of the parents. Do the same again for rib pattern etc.. etc.. Our goal is the heaviest pumpkin so our criteria are wall thickness + overall size. In planting seeds from pumpkins with these traits we are also carrying forward the traits that support these characteristics. Over time we will plant the seeds with these dominant traits.

12/10/2010 2:59:51 PM

Barrie ON

If you want to normalize the variation the answer it is right in the data and the pictures. Here is an example. Create an F1 cross of the 1385.5 Jutras = 1385.5 Jutras x Self. Mendel’s experiments tell us the variation in this F1 plant should be far less than in the 1385.5 Jutras. The 4 pictures I could find grown from the 1725 Harp are proof of this. The shapes are all very similar. When more of these plants are grown this year we will be able to see more results. The F2 generation should bring out sl more variation due to dominant vs. recessive shape traits. This is the 3:1 ratio. This will be the same for all future generations of selfing. Mixing in other traits create a great deal of perceived variation in the plants when there may not be. The ratios should be the same if you isolate a single characteristic. Also consideration should be given to the influence that a single trait has over another while growing as well as environmental factors.

12/10/2010 3:00:03 PM

Barrie ON

For future reference we should standardize how we take pictures recording the following;
•    Entire plant from base to tip
o Shows overall area
o Shows leaf structure
•    Picture from rear of pumpkin while attached to plant
o Shows vein characteristics
•    Picture from side of pumpkin (blossom end to right)
•    Picture from blossom end
•    Picture from overhead (e.g. off of step ladder)

12/11/2010 12:34:22 AM

Germany

kungfufita, the cross 1385 x self is no F1 cross. That term is normally used for crosses between different lines. Maybe AG x squash or Ag x Buttercup.

12/11/2010 3:55:26 AM

Muddy Waters

After reading all this my eyes are crossed now I look like my fathers brother!!

12/11/2010 4:19:27 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

So, 7 years later did Van Sand Bagus, figure this out? All of his pkns seem to be WAY over the chart...15-18% over the chart!!! Peace, Wayne

10/24/2017 1:50:24 AM