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Dummer Twp - Ontario

Didn't want to highjack the great thread below on male flowers any further so.

Why not bring in an older WR seed that 12-15 years ago grew the monster at that time. Can argument be made that with the growing techniques and all the fancy stuff we put in the garden or on our plants not have given the growers of that era the same possibility to grow 1500-1800?

Have the genetics been somewhat strung out with the amount of growers involved now. Would it not be a good idea to go back several years to Purify the genes so to speak.

Lets hear your thoughts!

Kirk

12/5/2010 5:01:48 AM

Rhode Island

captain kirk

to me when you go back thats exactly what you do.
i agree that with the products and growing styles we use today you could possibly expect a better result from these older seeds however,i dont feel its realistic to expect a seed whos maximum growth ten years ago was 700-950 lbs to be able to produce what todays monster seeds are capable of.
no matter what style or growth products you may use.

pap

12/5/2010 8:01:13 AM

Joliet, IL

what was the largest pumpkin grown most recently from the oldest seed that they could get sprouted? and was it grown with full care with one pumpkin on the main and grown for competition or just used as a pollinator?

i would think after all these years, some heavy hitters have tried growing some older genetics that they could get sprouted. i wonder how those pumpkins at that time faired with the newer genetics that they also grew that same season.

i think you could get some silver bullets from some 12+ year crosses and still produce up to 1400 possibly with todays growing practices. but i think by selectively breeding big heavy pumpkins that the genetics for that trait have been strengthened over time to produce bigger heavier pumpkins. therefore my opinion would be it wouldn't strengthen or purify, but more likely add smaller genetic size traits that it has to the mix and decrease the odds of bigger results. if a specific trait like crazy heavy was present in an older seed, than maybe it should be considered for adding that trait into a mix of a 2 or 3 year crossing plan along with large shelled pumpkins of today to try to get the big and heavy genes to line up.
just my opinions kirk. thanks for making me think about that one. i would love to hear some more comment on the topic.

12/5/2010 8:36:13 AM

Western PA

I believe Dave Stelts grew his 1662.5 last year from his 904 seed. I don't know offhand how old that 904 seed is though.

12/5/2010 11:01:50 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

You're a mind reader Zappa. The 904 is a 2006 seed, however, I see it as a combination of four seeds, 2 from 2000 and 2 from 2001. When you look at today's seeds, are they really new genetics or just combinations put together to enhance desireable traits.

12/5/2010 2:34:15 PM

Germany

Kirk, nobody could say if older seeds can compete today. Beside all progress in growing techniques ( which imo is a main factor for the increasing weights and which also benefits the old seeds ) you have a progress in genetic value ( capability ) from generation to generation.

I know that in dairy breeding, a top-of-the-breed sire from 30 years ago ( that are about 5 generations) is only average today, maybe less.

12/6/2010 3:33:17 AM

Ohio

Im with pap on this one and have heard talk and seen this over the past few years with the HH'S and what they have been growing or are starting to grow alot more of, and thats growing the today's genetics seeds ( a new seed that has been recently grown in the last few years), or a non proven seed that just came out.


How many (consistent) HH'S out there today that grow huge pumpkins every year that break their own personal best every year do you see growing a older seed or a old x new or reverse new x old and then see that pumpkin in the top 10 rankings for the GPC?.

Look at how many of these HH's that grow consistent huge pumpkins every year and look at all the newer seeds and cross's that they have grown , alot of them being off non proven seeds.

These guys grow the new genetics that they know will have a much better chance in growing bigger pumpkins then a older seed will each year.

Why grow the older seeds and cross into today's new seeds?
Well, just my opinion here, but chances are if that older seed was a great seed back in the day, then its genetics are already in the 'newer' today's seeds genetic back ground anyway. so why cross the old back into the new again when its already in their anyway?

I used to not think like this with crossing old x new, untill recently, but after talking with these guys and seeing with my own eyes what seed cross's they are growing BIGGER each year, it kinda changed my mind on my thinking,,lol

12/6/2010 5:33:12 AM

Muddy Waters

Dont bring back the 1061 it was ugly, still made 50,000$$ though

12/6/2010 8:19:55 AM

Western PA

I know it would never happen, but it would be neat to see maybe 3 or 4 HH'S all grow an older seed (same seed ) to see how big a fruit they could grow from them.

I would think they could grow bigger fruits from the same seed that they grew 10 years ago, but how much bigger ???

12/6/2010 8:39:43 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

There are too many unanswered questions on a topic like this. I think, whatever your gut tells you, or whatever you really want to try, you should try.

12/6/2010 10:28:51 AM

Colorado

I think the only reason to go back would be if some trait was missing in todays genetics. Something like disease resistance etc.For fruit weight, I think going back is a step in the wrong directions.

12/6/2010 11:39:38 AM

Minnesota

There are heavy hitters today still using 898Knauss. That is why I posted about the 689Beauchemin, it has 4 generations of 898Knauss in it. If you look back a generation on the heaviest pumpkins many of them seeds went back 5, 6, 7 years.

12/6/2010 2:53:24 PM

Western NY

They're "using" the 898, not growing it for competition.

If you wanted to go back to a proven seed to see if you could best it's WR in today's conditions, the 845 Bobier or 783 Daletas would probably be the ones to look at trying.

12/6/2010 3:02:51 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

I will gladly grow the 842 Eaton to the best of my abilities, side by side with some of todays best seeds, 1421, 1725 etc. to try to find out if this is true or false. If someone would like to send me an 842 to give this a try just let me know and I'll send you a bubble. LOL
Kevin

12/6/2010 6:33:54 PM

Cincinnati,OH

730 Stellpflug x 1450 Wallace

12/6/2010 8:39:07 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Nice Ron! if I had both I would do it. Andy you kill me, " they're using it" because.......

12/6/2010 9:10:52 PM

Minnesota

Will the way I understand it is, they are using the pollin from it to add the 898Knauss into it.

12/6/2010 9:48:44 PM

Niagara Falls,NY

I believe the 723 Bobier has thrown some 1400 lbers.Some seeds just have good genetics no matter how old it is.

12/6/2010 11:47:54 PM

Muddy Waters

I think you right a HH could grow a Monster with old seed.There pushing plants early on,& trying for a june pollination.Most growers were not doing that in 90s.We were digging these silly pits on clay base soil & making a disease pit in a wet year.On pure sand you can do a pit(drainage).If you go back to 90s I bet alot of big ones had July pollinations.The extra week to two weeks of growth along with great soil,soil drenchs etc.is what has improved genectics.I think there are a quite a few crosses out there as good as 1161 Rodonis that will never see dirt by the masses Get the HHitters to all try the same unknown cross Have a expert pick the cross.I bet you get a couple of MONSTERS.Why go back the genectics have been improved even if its only 20 or 30 percent.Its there.

12/7/2010 7:58:13 AM

Cincinnati,OH

Hey Andy I have a seed for you to try
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=124337

12/7/2010 9:18:36 AM

Western NY

I'm done a few crosses of a similar (or more "refined" line on each side Ron. Here was the latest:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=123312

I grew it this year and got a beautiful pumpkin, but for my standards, it underperformed. I made a 962 Wilemese x 291 Wolf years ago which was a similar "hybrid vigor" scenario. Grew it once, unimpressed.

Now, I may have just gotten unlucky, who knows. I'm thinking about growing the 514 again if I do a big field test to see how it stacks up. In all likely hood, I will probably abandon that line and just grow seeds that give me the best shot at hitting a WR.

12/7/2010 9:50:38 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

It only makes sense to go backwards when you are breeding for orange. I don't think there are many growers out there willing to say that an orange seed from 10 years ago could be grown "more orange" with today's techniques (although that is a pet project I am researching on the side).

But if it is your goal then it makes sense cosmetically to go backwards because older seeds have the largest number of offspring allowing you to better refine your choice to produce that magical red-orange beast and make a great cross too.

By the way my 434 grew to 1,200 in 2009 before it went down and there is nothing in that seed other than 1230 Daletas 01 and 603.5 Muller 03. The plant was 325 square feet and I didn't even bury any of the vines on that plant.

Once I saw that I decided that a big one could grow off almost any seed if you just treat it right. Jim Gerhardt

12/7/2010 1:17:22 PM

Dummer Twp - Ontario

Thanks for all your thoughts folks - great response

Kirk

12/7/2010 1:29:57 PM