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Austin MN

What is the difference if any between a seed like a 998 Pukos or a 1596 Wallace, and a seed with the same genetics? could a seed with the same back ground, genetics of a proven seed be just as good?

12/12/2010 7:34:00 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I'd recommend a strong eye massage, a good night's sleep, your favorite beverage, in preparation to read the "number of male flowers" thread on this board. It's all been discussed there.

The short answer (very short) is "no, they are not the same". They might be "just as good", or they might not be.

12/13/2010 12:34:08 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

will this turn into another Hybrid vigor and magic bullet discussion...lol

12/13/2010 12:55:09 PM

East Jordan, MI

LOL @ cliff, yes tconway the 135 post thread that cliff refferences is about halfway down the page and answers this question at great length from many points of view.

12/13/2010 8:20:10 PM

Eastern Washington State

Dang and here I am a science nerd and I missed the 135 post party!

To answer your question, all the seeds from a particular pumpkin (e.g. 998 Pukos) are not the same genetically speaking. They are merely siblings from a very large family. Just like You and your brother had the same parents and are probably more alike than the neighbor kid, but you're not identical twins.

A seed with the 'same genetics' (ie the 'same cross) as the the 998 pukos will be cousin to that family of 998 siblings. Again more similar than the neighbor kid, but not as close as siblings.

12/13/2010 10:39:47 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

The issue is how to get the best seed from the pumpkin now.

12/13/2010 11:12:59 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Brian B "Mr. Science nerd" LOL ...what I want to know is...if you remake a "super seed"...what are the chances of another "silver bullet" seed coming out of that remake? Peace, Wayne

12/14/2010 3:06:30 AM

Long Island,New York

ok i wanna know....what does Brian think of the 135 post comments?

12/14/2010 5:57:54 AM

Eastern Washington State

I think that's a lot of posts! Honestly haven't read them all yet since there's not much point in jumping in on a discussion that's already over. I'll read them over tomorrow lunch and throw in my two cents here at that time.

12/14/2010 7:23:45 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

>> The issue is how to get the best seed from the pumpkin now.

Yes, and the way to do that is plant 15 seeds from a promising pumpkin. Treat them the same, and select the best. Using 15 seeds gives you a 95% chance that one of those will be a "positive outlier", a silver bullet, a magic seed, a...

The problem is that most of us don't want to do that. So, the next best strategy is to plant seeds from 1600+ pound fruit, because they were likely grown on a silver bullet seed.

12/15/2010 12:17:41 PM

Austin MN

Okay thank you I understand how that works now.

12/15/2010 5:29:38 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Brian???

12/15/2010 9:14:24 PM

Eastern Washington State

For Wayne part 1
The simple answer to your question is ‘I don’t know’. Here’s my unsubstantiated take on the ‘silver bullet’ concept. To me it seems very possible that there is some degree of heterosis (hybrid vigor) in AGs today. It’s probably not much but is enough to give that added ‘edge’ at the growing conditions the heavy hitters can bring to the table. Given what seems to be the narrow genetic base of the AG royal family (family tree having one branch, lol), there’s probably only a few genetic loci (you can call them genes) that are responsible for the ‘boost’. For the process to work you need two specific, different forms (alleles) of the gene in one plant. So for instance, we have gene A and gene B . The ‘silver bullet’ seed has the correct forms of thousands of genes, however we don’t’ care about most of these because through the initial inbreeding by the likes of Mr Dill, they are invariant, or ‘fixed’ in the variety. However the concept of heterosis requires that the ‘silver bullet seed’ have two different forms of A and B in one plant, like this: AaBb. Selfing the AaBb plant will give you a one in four chance of retaining the AaBb genotype. If there were three genes involved, then that number goes down to one in eight (AaBbCc).

12/16/2010 4:17:19 PM

Eastern Washington State

For Wayne part 2
Selfing top plants would maintain the required gene forms (ie A, a, B, C, c), but still gives you low odds of getting the exact combination of them that you want for ‘silver bulletness’. Inbreeding (selfing) is a double edged sword. Selfing and choosing top plants will get you the one in 4 or 8 chance. Selfing without choosing top plants will remove the chances of getting that chance. Crossing from top to top plants is a total crapshoot similar to selfing top plants. In the hands of a breeder, selfing allows things to be set up so that you can get that ‘silver bullet’ every time. A plant breeder with lots of resources would self that AaBb plant, and create multiple inbred lines from it and then do test crosses between them to see which lines ‘cross well’. For instance the lines AAbb and aaBB when crossed would yield AaBb each and every time. This is what the hybrid corn breeders do. This has to happen randomly in AG plots. Maybe those ‘magic crosses’ that occur from time to time are from parents like AAbb and aaBB. Unfortunately in the absence of inbred lines you can’t go back and duplicate it using siblings.

12/16/2010 4:17:35 PM

Eastern Washington State

For Glen part 1
I agree that most AG lines must be merely a freakish strain of good ol’ Cucurbita maxima. The AG crossed with banana experiments agree with some others of us that have crossed to Rouge vif Etamps pumpkins. We can’t rule out a condition called aneuploidy but we don’t have any evidence for that. There could be some AG lines out there that have double the normal chromosome number (tetraploidy). However these would be readily known through their progeny, some of which would not set seed nor have viable pollen.
It also seems to me that the range of genetic variation observed in AGs can be explained simply by classical genetics without having to evoke explanations of epigenetics or genetic imprinting. I’m not saying that these aren’t real phenomena, they are very real ( and interesting). It’s just that there’s a real danger that people might go making unnecessary rules for themselves in the absence of any evidence. There was the beginnings the scientific process evident in the 135 posts. I hope it gets pursued. Three thoughts on epigenetics. First, the vast majority of DNA marker testing technology out there will NOT detect any difference between DNA isolated from a root, stem, fruit, main vine, tertiary vine, ect. It is obvious that the DNA is being used differently in different plant parts, but to most current marker technology it will LOOK the same. Second, it’s unlikely that main, secondary, tertiary pollen will be different in the next generation. This is because the genomic DNA is for the most part ‘set back to zero’ during early development. An extreme case is with some tissue culture, sometimes you can get some odd-looking plants whose progeny look perfectly normal. Third, I think the ‘growing seed from big pumpkins’ idea might have some merit, at least to the point that you wouldn’t choose seed from a stressed out 100 lb pumpkin. Of course we have the 2

12/16/2010 4:19:47 PM

Eastern Washington State

For Glen part 2
I would like to see detailed documented evidence for different colored fruit on a single plant. I’m not saying people are mistaken, it just hasn’t occurred in the material I have grown. I’ve grown out dozens of plants (small scale plots), and in every instance of multiple fruits on a vine, they have all finished up to have the same ‘look’ with regards to shape and color. The only exception to this was one year when mosaic virus got in. There were differences in girth depending on how much nutrient they could get but no green and orange fruit on the same plant. Sort of like you can recognize a golden delicious apple when you see one, because they are all coming from the same plant genetically speaking. Sure they start out green but they all finish yellow, with a varying degree of that rose-color blush to them.
It seems to me that the fundamental problem with AG genetics is and will likely continue to be a lack of controlled observations on traits of interest. How many replicated experiments can one fit on a given patch? I clone 'genes', study them using transgenic plants, and work with molecular markers for a living and I can tell you that if I were a multimillionaire there would be at least four 250 plant plots in Ohio generating the numbers needed to look for fruit size markers. IMO fruit size is a difficult trait to study, very environmentally dependent. Not only do you have to draw the silver bullet (genetic jackpot), you have to be able to shoot straight (grower skills) and the werewolf has to come from the front instead of sneaking up from the side (weather, disease, pests,...). All of these variables muddy the waters when it comes time to make any useful conclusions about which seed is ‘the best’.

12/16/2010 4:20:10 PM

Long Island,New York

And this is why I asked Brian what he thought. Tnx Brian.

12/16/2010 4:30:04 PM

East Jordan, MI

Thanks Brian, great post.

12/16/2010 4:46:32 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Yes Glen it was a great idea asking Brian. thanks

12/16/2010 5:00:34 PM

Colorado

Sounds like cloning plants from the giants may be the best % breeding tool. Then using the clones for pollinators.Matt d may be very busy every offseason

12/16/2010 6:13:57 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

i bet all the pumpkins from the cloned 1385 didn't look the same. did they?

12/17/2010 1:13:19 PM

Eastern Washington State

Thanks folks.

Glen looks like the tail end of that first bit for you was cut off. It was about John van Hook's 275 which has done very well despite it's relatively small size. However andy W's idea is certainly worth thinking about.

12/17/2010 4:26:09 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Way Kul, BrianB!!! You need to change yer name on bp.com to the "WereWolf" !!! LOL Serious !!! Peace, Wayne
I truly appreacitate yer sharing of knowledge!!! Peace, Wayne

12/18/2010 3:57:37 AM

Massillon, Ohio

Brian, your input is much appreciated.
Had to read some of it two or three times!
Fascinating stuff. Thanks!

12/19/2010 1:17:41 PM

Des Moines, Iowa

It seems that most seed picks including my own are from very good growers, in very good conditions that produce very heavy pumpkins. After reading this post it makes me think I should be looking for seeds from good genetics, an average grower, in poor conditions that produced above average result. The theory being a good grower in good conditions can make a rusty bullet look like a silver bullet. A silver bullet can make a rusty grower look like a heavy hitter.

Chad

12/19/2010 2:27:54 PM

Eastern Washington State

Nana if there is something in there that needs clarified please say so. I was scribbling it out over lunch, translating from scientific jargon the best that I could without losing all the meaning. Probably fell short on both counts a bit from time to time.

jrgourd I see what you're saying and agree to a point. Certainly seed from anyone's personal best, heavy hitter or no, seems like a good bet for an unproven seed. However if you want to spend money,IMO a proven seed is probably the safest bet. Also although I'm all about molecular genetics, a rusty grower in a poor environment (like myself) will never be breaking any records even if the seed was platinum, lol.

12/19/2010 7:40:19 PM

Colorado

Brian,are you describing "silverbulletness" as a recessive trait?

12/20/2010 3:20:13 PM

Eastern Washington State

Not at all. If it were recessive then people could just self top lines and go right to it. People have postulated that the 'silver bullet seed' is one of a minority having optimum the mix of genetic alleles needed to make it to the top. Not my concept, but people asked my opinion on what could be the genetic basis for such a seed, so I took the most likely worst-case scenario that heterosis (hybrid vigor) was required. That's where those bits for Wayne came from.

12/20/2010 4:10:57 PM

Colorado

Thanks brian,that helps me conceptually speaking!-no pun intended-lol

12/20/2010 4:47:03 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Perhaps in the year, say 2000 the "silver bullet" was a recessive trait but now after a relatively short time of selective breeding it has become dominant? But that is of course in reference to any silver bullet from a 723 or 846 etc not today's seeds. I hope that generally speaking we had found that silver bullet from those generations and now seek to further refine the genes by finding the new top growers. If my only intention was to grow the biggest pumpkin possible I'd try to plant a seed from the biggest pumpkin I could get my hands on, because whether recessive or dominant, you know the genes are in there. Maybe, if you plant the 1161, you end up with the crappy end of the bell curve and get a lousy pumpkin. Or, you get a monster that rivals the 1810 as "the silver bullet". I'd rather grow the bigger or biggest offspring knowing that the potential, while jumbled up, is difinitely there.

Jim Gerhardt

My comments are directed towards weight, not orange, of course.

12/20/2010 8:51:51 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Hi Jim, all,

For the purposes of this discussion, "Silver Bullet" refers to those seeds that are the best in any given fruit. Each and every fruit will have a half-dozen to two dozen "Silver Bullets". At least, that's the way I'm interpreting it! Silver bullets from a 1600+ fruit are likely better than silver bullets from a 300 pound fruit.

So, the reason we want to grow seeds from those 1600+ fruits is because at least we know that the seed that grew the 1600+ fruit was grown from one of the best seeds. (Discounting, for the moment, grower input, which is significant...) Now, we don't know what happened when that great seed was crossed, but knowing it came from a large fruit it simply gives us better odds at choosing a great seed. It's a guessing game, even with two seeds from the same pumpkin, but we do our best to lean the odds in our favor.

12/24/2010 11:51:54 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

In other words, "Silver Bullet" is not a gene! It is a seed, as a whole, that is on the high end of the distribution curve. I don't like judging humans (generally) on a curve, but seeds should be. For every fruit that has seeds, the potential in each seed is different. That's a fact. We want to choose the best seeds from any given seed stock.

12/24/2010 11:56:58 AM