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rural S.E. Michigan

HI everyone,
I believe the answer is correct so here goes:

In a discussion regarding buying seeds etc.the question came up: what if you are short time or just have a bad weather year for the nice expensive seeds you planted- basically your year is not as you thought it would be so you look forward to next year and want to save your seed or have more- you could sib your 1810 plant that is growing poorly (that you paid mucho dinero for 1 seed) and perhaps pollinate several flowers and just let them go so you end up with say 5 50 lb pumpkins on your 1 1810 plant. Wouldn't those seeds you harvest from all 5 pumpkins be the same as the seed you started with??? (paid big money for)

I said yes.

5/18/2011 2:02:32 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

If you self it? I believe so too.

5/18/2011 3:01:17 PM

no wont be same

could be as good or better but unknown til grown

5/18/2011 3:34:16 PM

no wont be same

could be as good or better but unknown til grown

5/18/2011 3:36:38 PM

no wont be same

could be as good or better but unknown til grown

5/18/2011 3:36:38 PM

no wont be same

could be as good or better but unknown til grown

5/18/2011 3:36:38 PM

no wont be same

could be as good or better but unknown til grown

5/18/2011 3:36:38 PM

Massillon, Ohio

And when Don has a point to make, you'd better listen.

EVERYTIME!!!!!!!!!

5/18/2011 4:25:09 PM

Colorado

Like don says each of those seeds will be different than the parent but if I had a 1810 I might just self it and try those seeds.

5/18/2011 5:45:41 PM

Fresno, CA

Not a genetics expert but had to take a class once upon a time. This is a simplification, using classic Mendelian genetics like with the famous garden pea example. Let's assume plants are diploid and have chromosome pairs like humans do. The plant has a gene for which it has "Ab" genetics or both genotypes A and b are present (let's say A codes for red fruit color and b codes for green fruit color and A is dominant to b. Assume male pollen granule has half genetic material (haploid). In one male pollen granule (haploid gamete) that you happen to pick up with your q-tip the gene for color is a "b". In the female flower on the same plant (selfing) you pollinate with your q-tip the haploid female genetic material also contains only the "b". The pumpkin #1 ends up with seeds containing "bb" or recessive green. If you grow a seed next year from Pumpkin #1 you'll get a green pumpkin (I know we all wish color genetics were that simple).

Now you also pollinated another female flower. That female by random chance happened to have "A" genetics and the successful male gamete you transfered to that flower via q-tip happened to be "A". So seeds from that pumpkin #2 will grow a plant with red pumpkins NEXT year. Note the male pollen will have no effect on pumpkin color in the current year.

I'm making assumptions here that could be wrong. For instance between seeds within one fruit there could be genetic variety. Also mixing some types of genes has different effects. Such as an "Ab" could theoretically produce a third color like brown, instead of the dominant red.

Basically sexual reproduction produces shuffling of genes even if selfing or sibbing are involved. Selfing/sibbing just cuts down on the total possible genotype combinations that could result.

5/18/2011 6:18:40 PM

3 acre corner in Whittaker,Mi USA (faulkner5@msn.com)

I'd try and self it and see what happens....Now I also know who I'm gonna ask for a seed or two come this fall!!! Erik

5/18/2011 6:21:51 PM

Fresno, CA

Complicated way to say what Don already said. You could grow one plant, self the flowers, have two seeds from different pumpkins on the same plant, and produce seeds with different genetics for next year.

Only after multiple years of careful selfing or sibbing could you begin to fix some traits with selection. And you still couldn't fix all the traits because you just can't tell all the genetics by looking at the plant. You would create a gradually smaller genetic pool though each generation by random sampling effects.

5/18/2011 6:40:22 PM

rural S.E. Michigan

Wow...bunch of replies and thanks for the emphasis Don :)

SO..one of the seeds I bought was from a selfing of the 1725 Harp. The pumpkin these seeds came from was *I think* around 1200lbs.

What this means then is that I do NOT have a 1725 seed, i have a 1200 seed with 1725 genetics in it. Therefore, any pumpkins grown with it will also have the genetics of the 1725 and therefore the possibility to go to 1725 or more since there could be a gene selected for even more growth....correct? (and the opposite- a slow grower)

And if I grow out my 1200 seed with 1725 genetics and self it, I will have a shuffled effect which will produce seeds in the pumpkin(s) that could exactly match the 1725 (slim chance but possible, no?) but realistically there would be a whole bunch of unknown seeds with good genetics- one of them could be the first 2000 or they could be good at making 400lb pumpkins.

Do I have this straight now?

And thanks for the replies!

5/19/2011 9:33:57 AM

rural S.E. Michigan

One more clarification:

If I had 2 1725 seeds, planted them both and then "crossed" those 2 plants, that would be a sib.

Yet using one plant from one seed is selfing, right?

5/19/2011 11:20:09 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Yes I believe you have got it now Scooby.

5/19/2011 1:26:04 PM

Pataskala,OH

So basically you could have seeds from the same pumpkin with some capable of being 1000 lbs and some that are capable of 2000lbs? Sounds like a lottery even if you have the "best" seed. lol

5/19/2011 4:35:55 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

NP, the lottery runs deeper an wider...and heavier too!!! Any given seed, from any given AG...w/ controlled cross is capable of doing GREAT THINGS...such as...new world record, orange, green, fugly, etc!!! Every seed in every pkn is different? Or at least that's what I been told!!! Peace, Wayne
PS...at this point, I certainly think that the capable part is in most awl seeds!!!

5/19/2011 7:36:19 PM

Germany

Hi there,
in my opinion it´s a good idea to self it, because from the genetic point of view it wouldn´t make a difference if you get the selfed fruit grow up to 1800 or just to 300 pounds, their seeds would carry the same (hopefully excellent) genetics. When planning to grow 5 pumpkins on this plant, I would self only two of them (more than one, just to be on the safe side that at least one develops decent quality seeds with great viability). The other three should be subject to pollination by different males. There´s something called plasmagenes. These are information which are present in the female plant but aren´t transferred by pollen. Hence, the seeds inherit more information from their mother than from their dad, although the chromosomal information consists of 50 percent from each of the parents. Doing it this way, your new seeds may have a chance to benefit from some excellent features of the pollinator, but still carry more than 50 percent of the information of the female. (Just have a look at a bunch nice AGs and their parents...I´m sure most of them have a closer resemblance of the female, but the new genetic information from the pollinator might have contributed to some additional excellent features such as better resistance against mildew etc. etc.)

5/20/2011 6:37:26 AM

Muddy Waters

And those seeds we cherish so much might be the wrong seeds!that no name 11?? might be the silver bullet!I just killed 2 melons(over fertz) I really wanted,but Im thinking,the back-up plants might be the real silver bullets time will tell!!

5/25/2011 6:47:19 AM