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Stanwood, Washington

Just a thought for Discussion. I have been spending the last few days while this site was down researching Genetics on AGGC and Pumpkin Link. It seems like pretty much all of the big ones have common ansestors for instance, of the top 15 Pumpkins Grown in the World 11 of them have either the the 1161 Rodonis or the the 1421 Stelts in their lineage with several of them having both. Further inbreeding is evident as you continue to trace it back when you see that the 1421 has the 1068 Wallace on both sides of its family tree and the 1068 is also in the lineage of the 1161. My Question is wether or not the increasing inbreeding is at all detrimental to pumpkins the way that it can be to animal species. Are we creating problems down the line as we narrow the gene pool by continuing to grow the same genetic lines over and over.

11/4/2011 12:32:44 PM

Stanwood, Washington

Along those lines are their any Genetic Lines out there that have produced big Pumpkins that haven't used the usual suspects and would it be beneficial to start crossing some of these genetics back in with the heavy hitters.

11/4/2011 12:34:40 PM

England, essex

i would not call that inbreeding?
you are just picking out certain parts,,
did you not notice the 998 lol

11/4/2011 3:49:44 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Look back, 5 or 7 generations!!!! Lots & lots of the same seeds are in the background!!! Peace, Wayne

11/5/2011 3:30:05 AM

Stanwood, Washington

You are correct Wayne I guess my question is if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Obviously it hasn't hurt things so far as the Pumpkins keep getting bigger and bigger but I wonder if at some point we might to start to see more problems with the plants as we continue to regrow the same few genetic lines over and over.

11/6/2011 12:13:46 AM

Kentucky, U.S.A.

Two cents from the Rookie in Kentucky...... Each pumpkin can produce inferior(SP) seeds along side desirable ones. You won't hear much about the duds, it's the big one's that get the attention!
I think you'll find some common threads on the producer side as well. Folks who know how to grow 'em big!
I don't see a down side to it as long as the record continues to break very regularly! How long has it been since you didn't see an annual new record? Not in a while!

11/6/2011 9:50:12 AM

Coupeville WA

But we are seeing more incidence (?anecdotal?) of low/no seed counts as well as sterility issues. This may or may not be due to inbreeding.
You don't have to look back very far to see that most of the pumpkins grown today come from about 4-6 pumpkins/lines.

11/6/2011 10:19:07 AM

Eastern Washington State

Good point Captain but short answer is that this inbreeding is not a bad thing for the current goal of getting larger pumpkins. Inbreeding isn't necessarily a bad thing in breeding programs. It increases uniformity, especially in the genetic traits being selected for. Sure you will get unwanted stuff in there as well. But as long as the winners are being chosen that's what counts. I would use horses as an example. Thoroughbreds have all kinds of inbreeding related genetic problems. However if you want to win the Kentucky Derby, you won't want to bet on the wild mustang!

So funny how people won't self plants due to 'inbreeding' when the family tree only has one branch anyway, lol.

11/7/2011 1:42:36 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Before hybrids became commercially common, I think inbreeding was the norm. Look at all the heirloom seeds that are common nowadays. These have had many generations of inbreeding. There are many varieties of non-hybrid squash out there, that have been highly inbred; so that they consistantly produce the same type of squash each year. Blue Hubbard squash is an example, and it's the same species as the Dill's Atlantic Giant.
That being said, as these different non-hybids were initially being stablized, I'm guessing, in at least some cases, fairly large populations were grown out, and seeds from the most desireable fruits were the ones that were kept, and grown out again.

11/7/2011 2:29:23 PM

Joliet, IL

If selfing was a problem with pumpkin plant genetics, then why would the plant evolve with both male and female flowers on the same plant? I would think these plants have worked that out in the process of evolving to this point. It is a survival mechanism to have both and I wouldn't think it to be a problem theoretically. How about tomatoes? Just cuz the female and male flower parts are so close in the same flower, they still can be pollinated by wandering bees or selfed. Not much said about selfing tomatoes causing genetic problems. Pretty much the same thing in my mind. I think selfing just stabilizes the genetics and increases the odds of the desired trait showing in the progeny.

11/7/2011 4:17:16 PM

Colorado

10 to 15 years ago there was a concern that we might breed our pumpkins into a genetic tailspin.I believe don black kept a seed bank so we could go back into the past if the genetics got the hobby into trouble. Ive always though flat vines or sterility or lack of disease resistance might catch up with us.Ive been growing 14 seasons and(other than low seed counts) the plants just seem to be getting better and better and the fruit likewise.Selective breeding of the best by more and more growers seems to be working.

11/7/2011 5:23:58 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

So...cojoe, shazzy, Doug14, Brian B, & Hands ON & BSD & prbly every other member of this forum...awl agree that inbreeding problems is sorta the less of two evils...as long as the AG's keep setting New World Records every year? Peace, Wayne
Ps...as long as there is at least one seed left at the end???

11/8/2011 3:41:10 AM

Joliet, IL

IYou can't use one or 2 pumpkins that attained enormous size and had seed issues or sterile males to say that inbreeding is a problem. There are many smaller pumpkins of size that have had sterility issues or no seeds or lack of viable seeds also. And heat and weather plays a role on seed count too. I have selfed the 1173 macari, the 1041 mckie, and the 991 urena. So far I have seen no ill effects personally, so I would say its not the lesser of 2 evils at all. I would say that mutations happen whether lines are close or not close. Sometimes things just do not line up properly. You can't use a human example to compare to this specific plant. This is just my opinion Wayne, but it is good to talk over with the others out there to form a general consensus.

11/8/2011 7:13:43 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I selfed a 1610 Lieber this season. So the seeds are selfed twice[(1161 Rodonis X self)X self]. Many of the seeds were too underdeveloped to be viable, but I still got about 240 seeds, that I've got drying now, that seem to be developed enough to be viable. 240 good seeds is a pretty decent amount.

11/8/2011 12:00:53 PM

Eastern Washington State

Wayne you crack me up! I wonder what that one seed would go for at auction?!

11/8/2011 8:02:51 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Brian, I would venture a guess of $1818.50!!!! Know what I mean!!! It is what it is!!! Grow em BIG!!! Peace, Wayne

11/9/2011 12:13:17 AM