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Rhode Island

this was a very first for ron and i. when sorting, checking and packaging seeds from my 1647 sunday it was noted that the seeds were two different sizes. very noticable size difference.like small and large.both groups were in perfect condition though.
has anyone ever had this happen on a BIG pumpkin before?
im not talking about incomplete seed tip,partially germinated or immature. just two different sizes of seed.
thanks

pap

11/21/2011 5:39:14 PM

i have noticed this before on 1622 of mine

11/21/2011 5:51:05 PM

Colorado

nope

11/21/2011 6:06:33 PM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

yes i have 2 kins with the 2 differant sizes both off an 1161

11/21/2011 8:12:58 PM

Germany

Hi Pap, haven´t had this before, but could imagine how it might have happened. It would be surprising to find the different seed sizes spread throughout the pumpkin, but different seed size in different seed strands would sound reasonable. This year, just for fun, I had done various cross-sections of females, of four-, five- and six-lobes, and at least for some of the five- and six-lobe flowers I noticed that the seed strands had different thickness (instead of a symmetric star-shape related to the number of lobes). This could perhaps cause different nutrient flow into the seeds, which then develop individual features in the individual seed strands.
As to my experience with the seeds themselves, I have only noticed different seed size for different pumpkins so far. This year I had grown pumpkins off 924 Wittmann and 1098 Moretti seeds (both are 1385 Jutras x 1161 Rodonis), and the seeds from these two pumpkins have totally different size, but that´s because of genetics of course, and cannot explain your amazing observation.
Would be interesting to see if the big and the small seeds develop different plants with different features. You need to find someone who´d like to grow a couple of those plants in the same patch under same conditions, some off the small seeds, and some plants off the big seeds.

11/22/2011 2:02:08 AM

Germany

Hi amelio,
I´ll do this little favor for you, but please don´t let it become a habit to have others translate your comments ;-)

11/22/2011 4:50:57 AM

Germany

As soon as different males are used for pollination, even though they were grown on one same plant (no matter if a different plant or the same plant which carries the female to be pollinated), the different males have had their individual history, which could have influenced the development of pollen at the very early stages. Significantly different N-availability or cool weather might be such time dependent parameters which determine the history of the pollen donors.
Thus, the small seeds could well be discarded as long as big ones are available in homogeneously good quality.
Environmental conditions influence genetics quite rapidly, and a world with lowered availability of the predominant nutrients N and CO2 would turn plants with big fruit into plants with small fruit. Higher CO2 concentrations of the soil gas phase would make N more easily available. With more CO2 underneath the canopy the plant demands more N, and establishes a bigger and deeper root system to cope with that (provided there´s sufficient Mg available from the very beginning, i.e., the stages of transplantation and burying of vines. Sufficient Ca supply is essential to maintain a usefully high Mg level, but Ca level shouldn´t be elevated at the cost of pH, as too high pH would have negative impact by immobilizing Fe and various trace minerals. Thus, instead of the (by nature) rather alkaline manure I only use pre-acidified manure (i.e., with Fe2SO4 acidified manure, mixed with green manure / silage) with a load of Mg from boiler sand. In addition, I use fly ash as a fundamental fertilizer in autumn. Both kinds of fertilizer have a very narrow Ca/Mg ratio, and I don´t need to use as large amounts as in case of very alkaline varieties of Ca supply. Those who just like to circumvent the pH problems by using CaCO3 neglect Mg, and therefore lower root performance by too low Mg availability.

11/22/2011 4:51:03 AM

Cologne Brescia Italy

Hello Pumpkin sassonnia, I would like to know how you got out of the 1098 Moretti
Thanks
Sergio

11/22/2011 4:59:41 AM

Germany

...and now I need to add my own comments with respect to the things pointed out by amelio: Pollen carries the male half of genetics into the final germ, which is comprised of the little germ root and the cotyledons inside the shell of the seed. Whereas the initial germ cell really is a single cell, the shell of the seed is already pre-built in the female, i.e., comprises the full female genetics. There´s a separating diaphragm between cotyledons and shell. Hence, I wouldn´t expect too pronounced influence of the slightly varying male genetics on the overall seed appearance. Also, if male genetics had any impact on seed shape and size, all seeds would have to be significantly different, because each pollen only carries 50% (or less) of the genetic info of the parent plant, and these genetics are distributed among all pollen just by random. The additional genetic alteration of pollen by the individual history of the male flower thus cannot be the one and only outstanding impact on seed size and shape, as the inherent genetic difference within the pool of pollen is much greater by nature.
Anyway, we agree in one point, which is supply of nutrients...but in my opinion variations in the supply of nutrients within the different seeds strands, i.e., in the female, should dominate this effect.

11/22/2011 5:02:33 AM

Germany

Hi Sergio, happy to ead your comment, just check out my Pumpking diary, there are pictures of the 1098 Moretti plant and the pumpkin therefrom. To be honest, I had expected a much bigger pumpkin, but the plant seemed to have a serious problem...and when I pulled the plant in October I noticed that a cherry tree had grown heaps of roots into the area of the pumpkin plant spot...bad luck. But the good thing about this pumpkin is, it went really heavy (+16%) and had a good wall thickness, even at the blossom end. Also, its seeds were looking quite good and there were quite many of them (haven´t counted, but should be some 400...500 seeds).

11/22/2011 5:07:34 AM

Germany

correction line 1: read (not ead)

11/22/2011 5:09:21 AM

Lexington, Ky

Same for me in an est 600 pound Squash off of a mature 800 Neily. About 300 large, 50 small. For what it's worth, I use only one male for pollinations, including this one.

11/22/2011 8:42:21 AM

Wi

Pap, my 672 seeds were 2 different sizes. I grew that seed to 1502 DMG. I did however only keep the small seeds from 672 because all the bigger ones were split open. They were probably fine, but I tossed them due to ignorance at the time :)

The small ones were very small and the big ones were very big. Same color though.

11/22/2011 9:14:25 AM

Ontario

I wonder if anyone has given much thought to seed weight? I'm a second year grower and am trying all sorts of things to improve my weights. This year I weighed all my seeds and was really surprised at the difference!,of all the seeds a got from my best kin 1166,2 seeds had the highest weight 2 of 380,followed closely by others at less followed others ect,ect.I also am trying vacuum packing them for storage,I wonder if Pap or Don Young has tried weighing the small and large seeds ,to see if there is a difference Terry

11/22/2011 9:37:43 AM

Pap, I grew a 1018 this year which is nothing compared to what you and Ron grow but the sizes of the seeds did vary slighty but not to much.

Martin

11/22/2011 10:29:21 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Amelio How many Giant Pumpkins have you grown? Your comments are being directed to some of the worlds top growers. Seed sizes can very depending on traits of parents in the family tree. Just like a pumpkin plant can throw different offspring on the same plant.

11/22/2011 1:10:42 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Been thinking the same thing for some time Shannon.

11/22/2011 1:47:22 PM

that way <<<<<<

Pumpking- In 1999 I grew a 672Dill94* plant in a garden of 3 squash and 3 pkn plants. It grew 3 fruit in the 200-300lb range. Two were control-pollinated by the 879Rockwell98* and one was open pollinated. The two fruit that were pollinated by the Rockwell had tan seeds...the one open pollinated had white seeds.Why?

11/22/2011 2:00:54 PM

Brittnau , Switzerland

is there a difference on were the seed in the Pumpkin was grown ?
I know a Grower he use from his own Pumpkin only seeds tat ar grow near the stem .

11/22/2011 2:03:31 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

tranlate.google.com is your friend....

Roger Ruegger from Brittnau upon Wigger ...
Our 7 years old son would feel very honored as a half-Austrian, with a third AG, the Swiss Championships in 2011 in Bavaria next year to try his first AG.
Did perhaps a grain of corn for us small stump near-beginner? We would cross with seed that has the Rodoni's 1161 and like most others in the Christy Harp.
Contact us through our Grower's diary would be possible here.
Hello, and congratulations once again from Upper Bavaria, where we unfortunately can not have any pumpkin patches.

11/22/2011 3:54:18 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

translate.google.com...

11/22/2011 3:55:07 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

I am just saying when you have grown AG's for a few years feel free to make comments. We invite your science and knowledge. Just don't make assumptions, or make off the wall comments that that it has to do with improper protection of the flower before or after pollination. I am the same cross as my brothers but am not like them.

11/22/2011 4:00:15 PM

Western NY

amelio,
sounds like your blowing smoke.

11/22/2011 7:48:10 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

All pap did was.....

11/22/2011 8:16:04 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Also before you insult other growers by questioning their growing practices I would tread with caution. We are a very tight bunch, and welcome new growers with seeds and advice. We can be very alleopatic when it comes to nonsense.

11/22/2011 9:12:00 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

At least we know about Amelio now...and I looked up alleopatic so I would understand Linus...

11/22/2011 9:58:16 PM

Germany

@ Lincoln Duncan: I suspect the open pollinated was later than the two deliberate control-pollinations, wasn´t it? If that was the case, the different age of the pumpkins could have been a reason for the different stages of shell development to show up as different colors. Did you check viability of all of them? Anyway, I´ve also had seeds from a rather young AG (60 days or so), which didn´t look very viable...flat, white, and felt like potato chips, but 8 out of 10 passed the germination test. If the pumpkins were of similar age, I would only expect the early stages of flower growth (the female, of course) to have had influence on the seeds in this particular fruit. Open pollination would for sure have included some pollen from your 879 Rockwell plant, or at least pollen from the various surrounding plants, and if the pollinator was important, you would have had to find various seed colors.

11/23/2011 1:47:23 AM

Germany

@ amelio: Did I write anything different recently? I wrote "...and if the pollinator was important...", haven´t written that I believe the pollinator to be important (with respect to color of seed shell)...don´t understand your concern...if other do? Not sure.

11/23/2011 4:49:04 AM

Germany

@ CliffWarren: Thanks mate, you saved my day, translate.google.com indeed is the perfect friend in this case, as it makes some things (don´t explicitly point out which ones) read in a more entertaining manner...the only good point about reading some such things.

11/23/2011 5:02:03 AM

Germany

@ pap: As you´re the one who had done the initial step into this (now sort of escalating) discussion, I´m inclined to keeping my fingers crossed more and more for a final amen from your end. Probably it will come (sooner or later), but please don´t feel urged to do that now, just enjoy where the story might be heading in the next days (...if it will find its way out of nonsense land? Who knows?).

11/23/2011 5:09:22 AM

Germany

amelio, please let me know which particular line you refer to (just copy the few lines of that particular section). This would probably be very helpful. ThanXalot!!!

11/23/2011 5:23:38 AM

Germany

What I wanted to express was (here the German Version): "...wenn´s denne so wäre, dann hätte man...". Although this isn´t a grammar board for foreigners, my comment (because my English just cannot be as perfect as that of the growers from the US, UK or Down Under) "...if the pollinator was important, you would have had to find various seed colors." apparently caused some misunderstanding. Now it´s not all about grammar, it´s about the key info in that little section of the sentence, which was worth being highlighted by amelio. How did the large fraction of the AG growers community, which is capable of reading, speaking and writing perfect English, understand my message?

11/23/2011 5:55:09 AM

Rhode Island

whats an italian doing in germany anyway? lol just kidding.

over the last twenty plus years it has been my pleasure to meet and rub elbows with many of the best ag growers in the hobby. i always believed they are successful because they know and understand their soil,they study how to maintain healthy soil and plant,maintaining a balance, also when to change gears with regard to their spray and additive programs.

oh ya, they also spend countless hours searching seed genetics looking for that next MAJIC SEED.all this before the actual gardem work even starts.

they mostly are hobby gardeners with years of practical on the job experience. yes they learned partly from books but,mostly by practical over the years good old fashioned experience.

book smart is a good thing,growing a true monster piece of fruit is another.you need both to be successful.

11/23/2011 6:53:05 AM

Germany

pap, you also saved my day with your first line, as I´m quite sure it won´t be the 1098 Moretti seed you hint at.

11/23/2011 7:14:10 AM

Germany

Dear amelio, just read and read and ...???.... ah yeah, READ:
What did I say with: "...I would only expect the early stages of flower growth (the female, of course) to have had influence on the seeds in this particular fruit."?

11/23/2011 7:16:21 AM

Germany

@ amelio:
1) You haven´t found the S-containing ingredients? There´s more than just one.
2) Any idea what went into the patch the year before?
3) Where´s the line with "no soil problem"?

11/23/2011 7:40:28 AM

that way <<<<<<

fully mature, all seeds germ, rockwell was 43 miles west in another patch. It cant be simple or open pollinated fruit would have some tan and some white very often.

11/23/2011 7:48:09 AM

Billerica,Massachusetts

i've seen that before

11/23/2011 8:26:21 AM

Westford, MA

Hey Glenn

"The Pink Fox is in the LLama POO"

REPEAT(secret code)

"The Pink Fox is in the LLama POO"

11/23/2011 10:16:16 AM

South East

Ive noticed diffrence in seed size in almost every pumpkin. Never had the exact same size for all seeds out of one pumpkin.

11/23/2011 11:20:12 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Roger that commence Operation "All Hat No Cattle" Procede with caution weapons hot

11/23/2011 12:14:37 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Copy that Klacy and Linus...

11/23/2011 1:10:50 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

All Jack o Latern No Pumpkin...C Maxima seeds come in two colors tan or white. It has to do with genetics...not with a lack of nutrients...again grow a pumpkin then make comments on your observations and your results

11/24/2011 2:51:12 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Who needs genetic events when I have both white and tan seeds in my seed collection..

11/24/2011 5:38:22 PM

Minnesota

Yes Amelio, but, has it been done on Giant pumpkins?

11/24/2011 5:55:01 PM

Omaha, Ne.

Just another broke financial teacher. There is a difference between Knowledge and wisdom.

11/24/2011 6:13:18 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I blame pap for all this.

11/24/2011 6:49:22 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

I blame Pap for all this too.

I grew 3 fruits this year. Two came from robust caramel colored seeds and one was from a smaller white seed. Why is it the 2 fruit from the caramel seeds produced big caramel seeds and the fruit from the white seed also had smaller white seeds? Same soil, same pollination methods of covering before and after, same idiot pollinator (me)... I believe it's genetics.

11/24/2011 7:47:36 PM

Eastern Washington State

Darren It's not even clear that thre is even a very deep knowledge base there.

11/24/2011 8:08:11 PM

Eastern Washington State

Pap those two seed sizes were both of the same 'type', right? You know, were both of the thick and tan type or thin and white?

11/24/2011 8:09:45 PM

Eastern Washington State

Amelio

Seed coat color (tan vs white )is a genetic trait. Seed coats are maternally based (like the fruit itself), so you will not see an effect from the pollinator until the next generation. All the seeds from a given fruit in most of ours' experienct the same appearance. That's what makes Pap's observation so interesting.

11/24/2011 8:15:27 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Ohhh this brings back the lobe pollination theory...

11/24/2011 8:25:36 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

ya...way to go pap...

Sending out seeds today from our 898 Dixon and yes pap...noticed that there were large and small..

No Shannon...lets not ponder the lobe theory again...lol..

11/24/2011 9:21:48 PM

East Jordan, MI

It sure looks like it's gonna ba a loooooong winter.

11/24/2011 11:01:54 PM

Ohio

Klancy, Linus,

''The pink Mammoth fox Jumped over the yellow lazy Moon growing to under 100 lbs''

''Over..''

Do you copy''

Sig 16 my last detail...

11/25/2011 7:34:49 AM

President - GPC

WhatZ your vector victor. BrookZ...are you the TYdeZster?

I thought orange genetics had mostly white seedZ until they were tainted by HEAVY... and Orange were quite close to True Green Squash.... Good Question PapsZter...
but Im not sure I learned much about seed color except for it does make sense (logical) to me that the female is responsible for the color of the shell since every male pollen grain is different.... And I would bet Amelio doesnt have too many friendZ>...

11/25/2011 7:21:44 PM

South Hero, VT

Does anyone else feel as if they fell down a rabbit hole and can't get back out?

I am going to patiently wait for next year, read the diaries, and wait for the results from the officially sanctioned weigh off sites in the fall.

"When the tailgate drops, the bullshit stops."

Nuff said

11/25/2011 9:45:11 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Did someone mention tye-dies,(TYdeZster)? I love kul t-shirts!!!...sorry, I guess not? What are stigmatic rays? Always tryin to learn, ya know? Peace, Wayne

11/26/2011 3:40:45 AM

Eastern Washington State

Wayne there's probably translation errors among other things wrong in that dude's posts. I think what he was talking about was was the array of transmitting tracts in the pistil. Pollen is deposited on and germinates on the stigma. It then grows as a tube down through channels of loose, nutrient filled structures called the transmitting tracts. Those lead to the ovaries where the ovules (potential seeds) are lined up. Tubes grow right up to the ovules where the fertilization takes place.

11/26/2011 3:26:31 PM

Germany

Wayne, Brian, I think with "stigmatic ray" he refers to a lobe, with respect to star-shaped stigma (occasionally found in ...???...well, quite many flowers), one ray would mean one lobe. Just my two cents.

11/26/2011 3:47:35 PM

Eastern Washington State

Pumpking you're correct stigmatic ray = lobe. I should have looked it up. Each ray/lobe will have its own transmitting tract. One a pollen tube is in a given transmitting tract, it won't cross over to an adjacent lobe's tract and therefore ovules. Ron Rahe once did this experiment using different pollen in a maxima variety called 'triamble'. I grew one this year in fact (thanks Ron).

11/26/2011 8:21:02 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Thanks, Pking...a "stigmatic ray" is what we know as a lobe? Kul beans!!!! makes it understandable!!! Peace, Wayne

11/27/2011 1:33:53 AM

Ohio

Brian, I grew 2 seeds (diffrent lobe cross) out of Rons Triamble cross(s) also, one lobe crossed with the AG grew orangish and the other selfed lobe grew green.

11/27/2011 5:07:38 AM

Germany

Amelio, I have grown a 932 Jager seed in 2011...indeed, it had the color as described above. And it grew a pumpkin with only a small fraction of yellow and orange. Also, I grew the 852 Myers, the seed had similar contributions of size and caramel color to the overall appearance, and the pumpkin thereof was...X-tremely orange (and its seeds again are big and with some touch of caramel). Maybe the info for color of seed shell and info for color of pumpkin skin just don´t adhere to the same chromosomes?

11/27/2011 3:57:43 PM

Eastern Washington State

Ok don't know any german other than what I can recognize from English.

11/27/2011 7:29:06 PM

Eastern Washington State

Anyway, I did to a controlled pollination between a white/thin seeded inbred variety 'Lakota' as female by a tan/thick seeded variety 'Jarrahdale' as male. I grew the F1 this year and it had tan/thick seeds. So it seems that Tan/thick is dominant in this cross and probably others.

11/27/2011 7:32:41 PM

Kansas

On same Chromosomen that could already be, but thus I had not been occupied. I raise also not the requirement of the scientificness in this thing separate sound out only freely around, which one should always make with the search for heiress formations, in order to be able to then search more exactly.
With the connections I do not have wrongly, as one can see also at your 536,8er, which as more whitish of 1068 Wallace 03 ago a noticeably darker Caramel has than also with the Wallaceträger 1400 the Hester dusted 772.7 because the Moretti 1098 over 1385,5 Jutras also the Wallace 1068 in it has. The difference is not large.
Per amelios rant above.

11/27/2011 8:16:48 PM

Somerset,Ky

If you want a white pumpkin 1018 Van Hook should do it.

11/28/2011 7:28:14 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

OK, ok, translate.google.com is not so friendly after all...

11/30/2011 5:06:34 PM

Littleton, Colorado

amelio, you can find the seed on Brett Hester's website.

http://www.giantsgarden.com/

11/30/2011 5:40:40 PM

Massachusetts

CliffWarren, lol!!!!!

11/30/2011 7:30:24 PM

Eastern Washington State

lol Cliff!

I just pasted in a paragraph in English, translated it through a few languages, then back to English. What came out wasn't what went in!

11/30/2011 7:30:50 PM

Eastern Washington State

Oh and to confuse things even more, there is more than one genetic basis for 'white'. In the related species C. pepo (field pumpkin) white is dominant. I crossed 'baby boo' with an orange pumpkin and the F1 progeny was totally white. go figure.

11/30/2011 7:33:51 PM

Eastern Washington State

oops that last post should have gone in another thread. My apologies.

11/30/2011 7:34:28 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Brian B...would not worry to much...to many Brians, and B,s (Brooks B.)(baby boos) in general that I don't think any one will notice!!!! LOL!! Has been fun tho!!! Peace, Wayne

12/2/2011 12:07:28 AM

Valencia Spain

maybe amelio and pumpkin could have their own thread

lolllllllll

12/2/2011 2:57:30 PM

Valencia Spain

i mean for pumpkin king and amelio

12/2/2011 3:06:25 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Pumpking is fine. He was just trying to be helpful.

12/2/2011 3:39:01 PM

Valencia Spain

its just a joke hahaha but some people seem to know everything LOL

12/3/2011 7:04:16 AM

South Hero, VT

Pap, thank you for starting one of the longest and entertaining threads I've seen on the BP website.

Your innocent question has produced some replies, and replies to replies, that have made me laugh until I cried(and spilt some beer, too).

Looking forward to when the tailgate drops next year.

12/3/2011 8:12:18 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Shame on YOU Steve....spilling beer!!!! LOL Peace, Wayne

12/3/2011 11:44:27 PM

Adams County

got a funny felling that pap will need a bigger truck......

12/4/2011 7:46:31 AM

Rhode Island

boy oh boy did this post take on a life of its own or what? lol

12/4/2011 9:07:51 AM

Valencia Spain

pumpking and amelio i apologise for my comments

cheers james

12/4/2011 11:57:14 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I said it before pap.....I blame it all on you. I knew when you posted about your seeds being two different sizes that things would never be the same.

12/4/2011 4:07:05 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

How could you not see this coming?

12/4/2011 4:08:08 PM

Missouri Wine Country

came in late but here are my thoughts,
Do we know that everygrain of pollin from a male flower is the same, and that every lobe of a female flower carries the same genetic make up? Many poeple use several flowers from the same male plant to pollinate the female flower. Where i'm going is that pollen from one male flower may have controlled the pollination of one female flower lobe(large seeds) and the pollen from another flower, same male plant could have controlled the pollination of another lobe, thus small seeds. ???? any thoughts.

12/4/2011 11:49:17 PM

Minnesota

I think a garden gnome went bad, clear them out of the garden and everything will be fine.

12/5/2011 12:26:28 AM

Minnesota

(Kidding)

12/5/2011 12:26:49 AM

Somerset Ky

tan seeds are not sick.

12/5/2011 7:07:54 AM