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Nottingham, UK

I was wondering if there was any dominance in pumpkin colour with regards to genes that express for orange. I realise this is a simplistic view as there must be many complicated factors that lead to genetic changes etc

Anway , I am aware that a lot of yellow pumpkins produce seed that gives rise to a nice orange pumpkin. Is the opposite true in that there are as many orange pumpkins whose seed produces yellow pumpkins?

Thanks

Pete

11/30/2011 6:41:41 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Its iffy...I planted 16 of the same 1370 Rose x 1370 Rose cross one year. Of the 16 vine color being yellow seamed to be an indication of Orange Shiny Red Fruit. Vines that maintained the Dark Green color threw a cantelouped fruit. Squash x Squash also used to throw brilliant red orange fruit, or a solid emerald green. 616 Corkum and some Andrews seeds. I believe the genetics are more refined now, but it still is no safe bet that a Brilliant orange x Brilliant orange will produce a nice orange fruit.

11/30/2011 1:30:12 PM

Colorado

I believe its dominant more often than not.I'm not talking about howard dill award orange, just orange versus white.The 1568 connolly(orange x orange) threw quit a few white pumpkins and the 1610 lieber threw some lighter colored than expected. So one never knows 100% what your going to get

11/30/2011 3:36:00 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

After observing this for the last 10 years or so, I don't think there are clear answers.

Looooong ago, there was a very interesting thread on the old Mallorn Pumpkin email list. In it, someone suggested that there are two (or more than one) dominant genes for color.

R - Dominant color for red, or very bright orange.
B - Dominant for white, salmon, pink, etc.
b - Recessive gene, green.

Still, there are more questions than answers. Some have theorized that color might be "expressed" by environment. I know that there is a particular spot in my patch where the fruit is always more orange than expected!

Back to genes, one might expect that if you always crossed green with green, you'd get green. But I've seen several that turn out very bright orange!

Finally, many of our fruit colors are actually in layers. Sometimes you'll see a very dark red layer of "skin", but over that is a layer of white or salmon... if you scratch the fruit you see that there is a very distinct layer of red underneath.... Explain that one to me!

Many times we look at the white/salmon fruit as "going heavy". Maybe this is simply because the fruit has more layers of skin, preventing the fruit from drying in the heat of the day.

Your guess is as good as mine!

11/30/2011 4:20:17 PM

Eastern Washington State

I'm with Shannon cojoe and Cliff.

I've grown segregating populations and although it seems like orange is dominant, the fruits of some individual sibling plants from the same orange parent are "more orange" than others. Most likely this is due to the presence of additional genes called 'modifier genes' that as the name implies, modifies the effect or the dominant orange gene(s). I have gotten off-white fruit from orange parents. Certainly your odds of an dark orange fruit will be greatly increased if both parental plants yielded orange. But as these experienced people pointed out, it's not a sure thing!

11/30/2011 7:27:01 PM

Deer Park, WI

Cliff- I cant believe you recalled that old Mallorn post! I remember penning that thread a decade ago!

Indeed, what scant literature existed on C. maxima coloring at the time suggested that color is a multi-gene trait and that the most basic rule of mendelian dominance/recessiveness does not exactly apply. And I agree, environment likely also has a both direct and possibly epigenetic effects on color expression.

Because the deep orange gene shares dominance with the white/salmon gene, most fruit will have this diluted mixture of both.

12/1/2011 9:33:40 PM

Bethlehem CT

I definitely think environment plays a role somehow. Give a 1385 Jutras seed to Mark Lombardi, or Dave Bhaskaran I am willing to bet they grow a nice orange one off it. Certain growers have a knack for coaxing the orange out. I wish I knew why.

12/1/2011 9:58:24 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Hey Joze! Yes, I saved that thread and studied it, ha ha. I think Mike Brock from California played a large roll in it. Unfortunately, at the moment I don't know where it is, but I do remember that it helped to explain things. It made sense based on what we see happening. If I find it I'll try to post it somehow.

12/2/2011 10:24:28 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

From Joe Ailts, 3-April, 2002:

After watching the west coast seminar video on AG color, here is what I
gleaned from it-

There are 3 genes (probably more) that influence color. The first is an
orange/cream/white gene termed "B". Second is the recessive squash green
gene termed "b". The third gene is the beautiful red color, termed the "R"
gene.

It's hard to pin down which strains actually contain the R gene. Many
believe the 801 and 567 have it, but there is no way of knowing for sure.
Hybrid Prizewinners Surly have the R gene, as they always throw red fruit.

Here is how the genetics USUALLY work: Big B is dominant over little b,
meaning when you cross a squash with a creamy/orange/white, you usually get
creamy. Big B appears to be dominant or Co-dominant with R. When you cross
a big B and R, the results are a mix of cream and red, with the offspring of
this cross showing a mix of cream and red fruit (567 offspring?)

And in the final situation, R gene is EVENTUALLY DOMINANT over little b,
with one little catch... According to the speakers, this appears to be a
special situation where the green gene (little b) is displayed throughout
the growing season. The fruit grow as a squash until Aug-Sept, where the R
gene kicks in. Just like a field pumpkin, the color of the skin will
transform into red.

This has huge implications, as green skin photosynthesizes. This is one
possible explanation for the over the chart heavyness squash typically
display.

Developing this type of seed would be ideal for growers. A fruit that grows
solid like a squash, and finishes up the year Orange.

--

The second idea never came to be, but the first part makes a lot of sense, even today.

12/2/2011 10:56:49 AM

Deer Park, WI

Nice find, Cliff! What a flash from the past. And the genetics (801, 567) i reference in the thread, only a handful of us would recognize today!

12/2/2011 9:08:01 PM

East Jordan, MI

Joze,
On my 1180 Weston (1368 Liggett x 1108 Miller) plant this year the pumpkin (1150 Weston 11) was fairly orange but as the season closed it started turning green on the bottom where the sun hit it more in the morning and evening. (I grow under a shade tarp). So does photosynthesis also bring out the squash trait as it matures?
Here's a couple of pictures.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=172252
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=172253
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=172254
It had a very DARK green layer right under teh orange outside layer of skin over the entire 'kin too.

12/2/2011 11:40:05 PM

Johnston, R.I.

In my yard it is........

12/3/2011 5:18:38 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

For some reason most pumpkins are green along the soil line. I am sure the sun brings out the orange pigment as I have never seen Orange where the sun does not shine. Althought I have seen tarped and shade be a brilliant orange.

12/3/2011 9:33:22 AM

Deer Park, WI

Based on my understanding, photosynthesis will not bring out the squash trait. Rather, a combination of genetic and environmental factors, nearly all of which we do not know of or understand, will control the evolution of color over time.

I do agree with Shannon's observation above- direct sunlight seems to enhance dark orange color.

12/4/2011 10:33:19 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Yes, thinking about the 567 and 801... back then I think you had a more certain chance of getting bright orange. With seeds today, there is less certainty in the color. It's too mixed up. Yes, you can get great orange, but it's more of a crapshoot.

Is that fair to say?

12/4/2011 5:57:03 PM

Deer Park, WI

Cliff I believe your comment is spot-on. The more and more interbreeding that takes place, the more diluted everything becomes. The law of entropy applies here.

Growers who favor deep orange are all we have for the preservation of this color in fruit. Randomness will result in the occasional deep orange fruit, but unless there's a concerted effort to preserve this trait, it may, with time, fall by the wayside.

Of course, there are likely covert operations out there working to preserve certain lines with various desirable traits. Anyone seen Beachy or Welty lately? **cough cough**

12/4/2011 9:10:05 PM

Cincinnati,OH

I have seed available from my 429 Rahe (#10 Beachy 03 x Sibling) The # 10 Beachy was 801.5 Stelts x sibling. The sibling was a clone from the 1049 Koch plant.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=172748

12/4/2011 10:34:40 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Seeds available 171 Rahe Rahe 06 (878 Wilson 98 x Self)
878 Wilson was 567.5 Mombert x Self)
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=59076

12/4/2011 10:45:46 PM