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President - GPC

Feelings on old genetics with new, does this do any good to reinforce sought after genetic lineZ?

Say perhapZ a 805 Pukos into a 1495 SteltZ...

12/28/2011 9:58:14 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Personally, I see no obvious benefit of crossing a 805 Pukos into a 1495 Stelts or the reverse. The 805 was a great seed in it's day, a combination of 97 and 99 genetics. Not saying it wouldn't work, you would be bringing a whole lot of 935 Lloyd back into the mix.

12/28/2011 10:31:50 AM

Eastern Washington State

Wiz you could perhaps refine your question a bit. A good plant breeder almost always thinks of the end objective and then asks "what specifically does each potential parent bring to the table in making that happen?" You did that with the orange and heavy thread a while back. What trait(Z) from the 805 do you want to reinforce that more modern material is deficient in?

12/28/2011 11:20:45 AM

Rhode Island

im all for moving the genetics forward. for that reason id have no interest in bringing in older genetics into the picture.
especially when you consider growing practices are pretty much the same as they were several years ago so? if these seed stocks were not big enough back then? ( compaired to todays weights ) they wont be big enough now.just my feeling
pap

12/28/2011 12:25:44 PM

South East

Was growing the same back then? Maybe it was,,but a lot of starting and good growers from then have more skill and knowledge these days. Does a pumpkin seed really gain 200 or 300 lbs of potential just by a single cross? And another 200 lbs of potential after the next? 1161, 1385 are both soon 4 years old almost 5. Only few of their ofsping have grown anything bigger yet Yet they opened the door to 17 and 1800 lbs. The 991 urena soon to be 6 years old to grew 1700 lbs last season. Meaning that if the 991 had reached it sofar max potential in 2006. we would have only gained 114 lbs in the last 6 years, think about it. And if the 1068 had done the same in 2004 the world record would have been 1662 in 2004! Instead it took 3 more years. So if the potential of a 2003, 2005 or 2006 seed is 1600 plus to 1700 lbs, how much less would their parents potential be, a 2000 seed? cant be to much i,d think.
I think the growth that happened has little to with genetics. But more so with grower skill. And with so many fruits grown,,pumpkins slowly get bigger per seed, but i dont think as fast as some think. A single cross does increase potential weight,,but mixes up charactaristics. The best mixes make for the biggest pumpkins. Just my two cents here

12/28/2011 1:06:36 PM

South East

* a single cross doesn not increase potential weight.

12/28/2011 1:17:22 PM

Minnesota

I don't have much room to let the plant grow to the fullest but I can work on genetics. I am working on a seed with alot of 898knauss in it and then going from there. On aggc the top 8 out of 10 has 898knauss in it, some more than once. Just a great seed with standing the test of time better than alot of the greater seeds, the number 1 pollinater plant. I think...

12/28/2011 1:40:03 PM

Joliet, IL

How has crossing old with new worked in the past? Are there any crosses from say 2005 that used a 2004 seed crossed with a 1996 seed and what were the results?

The 991 is an anomaly in my eyes. It keeps producing bigger the longer it keeps being tried. Therefore its genetics should be kept a close eye on for the future because it is showing it had the power in some of its seeds to produce weights equal to or greater than more recent crosses. And the anomaly factor comes along with frequency and weather and maybe why it goes against the norm. In an ideal weather scenario an extremely talented gardener grew a 1704 pouunder on a seed that has been heavily grown and proven. You take any seed and have the heavy hitters grow it 100 times total and it is gonna pop some monsters especially in ideal conditions. The key is to find the ones that line up and produce big with more frequency like the 991 has.

With that being said, todays seeds and the more generations of selective breeding strengthens the entire pool giving more chances at higher percentages of the size and vigor being found in a higher percentage of seeds from an individual pumpkin. And it snowballs from there. Gradually. Nothing wrong with crossing old with new to see what happens. But if this was a good strategy than I believe it would have already been implemented with success. As in most selective breeding cultures, the new and improved strengthened lines that are crossed keeps the snowball growing toward the desired traits...or in this case the pumpins growing. How far in between old and new is another debate. If you go to the marijuana breeders logic, not many are growing the strains from the 70s and 80s and expecting to produce equivelent to todays strengthened genetics. They will go back some years in crossing but usually keep taking the best of the best and crossing with the best.

12/28/2011 7:48:36 PM

President - GPC

ThankZ ShaZZMasZter,
Old...991 Urena... into new...1495 SteltZ, 1787est Wallace....ThatZ what I'm gonna do....901 Hunt...into Known good older genetics with a track record into new high power genetics....Old time grower MadMan Marc that was his thinkin....Old into new....not new into Old.....
ShaZZam!.. I think the 991 could become the new 898 Knauss??

Nother question... is there a 991 X 898 ish cross?

12/29/2011 10:35:21 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

1394 Daletas- 991 Urena x 898 Knauss

12/29/2011 10:57:59 AM

Joliet, IL

I like the 991 WiZzy for selfish reasons cuz it brought me huge joy with my 1493 and to grow a pumpkin with a circumference larger than 200" is a trip. And to see what Leonardo did with it this year means there were a high percentage of seeds with the magic in that 2005 cross. It was ahead of its time so to speak. If we can identify these ahead of their time genetics, then semi-older with new makes sense. The 1704 urena (991 x 1468.5) and 1560 urena (1303 x 991) will be fun to track in the future.

It looks like on paper that Steve Daletas already made the transition from the 898 as a designated pollinator for many crosses in the past to using the 991 as a pollinator this year. I imagine for the reasons discussed here. Maybe try the 1431.5 daletas (1421x 991) or the 1255.5 (1303 x 991) or the 1292 daletas (1286.5 x 991). The closest thing representing older with new using the 991 on one of the sides is the 1092 Naylor (991 x 1725) or 1133.5 Kline (991 x1725). Then 1092 was 18% heavy and grown in the southern Illinois heat and drought last year. It was also a new personal best for my buddy Tyson Naylor and was glad to meet him halfway with the 1725 flowers.

I like your thinking Wiz as well as Madman Marc's and Steve Daletas' as well. To look back in 5 years and see how the 991 crosses faired out will be interesting. I think the 1560 urena will do some very nice things in the future when all is said and done.

12/29/2011 12:21:38 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Hybrid Vigor Theory ...

12/29/2011 1:05:18 PM

Brush, Colorado

Don't know my AG lines very well, but....Find me a 991 selfed for 3 or more generations crossed with another selfed linage to produce a 1000 pound plus globe... I'd plant it in 2012.

If you cross two linebreds with some success...you should see some consistancy in size produced for that cross. Hopefully produce a bunch of monster globes. And would you consider this outcrossed seed as a terminal cross and not expect any consistancy to use as a parent. What happens in the real world with you heavey hitters?

12/31/2011 1:30:41 AM

Frankfort Ohio

im with Shazzy the 1560 is the next big seed all it takes is it seeing dirt now all i need is to find one

12/31/2011 9:07:25 AM