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Taylorsville, California

The 1032 Urena(like the 998 & 1231 Pukos) is the reverse of the 991, same plants and all. With the success of the 991 It makes one wonder why the 1032 never got much of a planting. Leonardo actually told me in 2010 that he was pretty sure he was the only one to ever plant it,, and said it was a great plant that grew a good % heavy fruit, forgot the size. Has anyone grown the 1032, or have thoughts on why it hasn't seen much dirt. I do have a couple and am thinking seriously about planting it.

1/11/2012 7:35:46 PM

Hinckley MN

I think you answered your question with the fact that the fruit was not a memorable size. Someone has to grow a big pumpkin off a seed for that seed to become popular. Now that Leonardo Urena is a household name, it might get planted more. Alot of good genetics seeds get passed up looking for great genetics. Not alot of sub 1000lb seeds will be planted by people looking to break 2000lbs. only a couple 900lb seeds have a history of growing fruit over 1500lbs.

1/11/2012 8:37:10 PM

Germany

Not exactly the same difference in planting frequency, but perhaps for similar reason: the 1566 Rodonis hasn't been planted as often as its reverse, the 1161. If the 1566 had produced one or two 1700++ pumpkins in 2010, many more people might have considered growing a 1566. Nevertheless, its progeny have shown the potential of the 1566 already. Go for the 1032 and prove its potential...and keep hands on those seeds, the better you grow the more likely they are to become hot seeds.

1/11/2012 10:44:40 PM

Minnesota

Ever hear of Michael Jordan's brother?
Didn't think so.

1/11/2012 10:52:47 PM

Germany

Sorry Chad, but Michael Jordan's brother just cannot be a reverse cross...guess why.

1/12/2012 12:31:54 AM

Southeast Texas

auston i been thinking of planting it to when i plant my 1450 wallace,i want to cross the 1450 to the 1032 and the 1231.remake the 1161 and 1032 x 1450 as good or better than the 1231 x 1450 cross.leonardo grew the 961 off the 1032,the 961 grew the 1378glazier and the 1223glazier.the 961 went 25%over the chart.

1/12/2012 5:54:54 AM

Taylorsville, California

Good plan Paul,it's worth a try to recreate some of that magic of the 1161 cross using the 1032,,& now that you remind me of the 961 being a 1032 progeny it just makes that 1032 that much more intriguing. The 961 grew a number of big pumpkins, almost all of which went 15-25% heavy.
Chad- point well taken,but,, the 998 pukos was the big name, superstar "Michael" of the family after growing the 1689, but little brother 991 came along and is the star of the family now,,, true this seldom happens when tryn to remake a great seed(been tried without luck with 1068,898,845,ect). It does, however, seem that there are seeds with reverse crosses as good or better-1231 & 998, 1566 & 1161 are a couple that come to mind,reverse crosses share more similar genes than a "remake"
Farmerben- not sure how long ya been around but if you look at the past couple years some of the best proven seeds are in the 900 lb range, some much smaller,,904,991,998,901, all proven over 1650 lbs& planted by many HH shooting for 2000 lbs- it was the 1032 that I was curious about however, and pumpkins in the 1000 lb range have done alright in their progeny also;)

1/12/2012 11:30:25 AM

Colorado

M. J's parents arent monoecious-hence no reverse cross long lost brother from his other mother.Sorry long winter-lol

1/12/2012 12:09:23 PM

Taylorsville, California

Lol Joe

1/12/2012 1:08:56 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Seeds from the two fruit involved in a same-plant reciprocal crosses (plant a x plant b and plant b x plant a) are genetically the same "full-sib family" and as such have the same probability of success (assuming both were controlled crosses without pollen contamination). Given that biological fact, the following seeds and reciprocal-crosses are essentially the same (within each pair, not across all pairs, of course):

1068/500 Wallace
998.6/1231 Pukos     
991/1032 Urena         
1161/1566 Rodonis     
1725/1605 Sweet     
1810.5/1468 Stevens     
etc.

Differences that we might observe between offspring of one member of the pair and the other are therefore due to non-genetic factors.

"Remakes" are something different than reciprocal crosses in that remakes are basically crossing siblings from the same two families as the original cross, not the two exact same plants. The distribution of traits in remakes could be similar (but not identical) to the original cross, or could be worse (more likely, given the high success of the first cross) or could be better (less likely, but possible). We can't tell by looking. However, with high certainty we know that remakes won’t be identical to the original cross in the way that a same-plant reciprocal cross is.

Short answer: if you have a 1032 Urena and you really wish you had a 991 to plant - you essentially do. Plant the 1032.

1/12/2012 1:27:09 PM

Colorado

Bath it is interesting in the crosses -that have had a good sampling- that one side seems to do better than the other.I agree that "seems" probably comes from some other factor than the genetic potential.I know genetically they should be a wash.However, if i've got a 1161r and a 1566r, I'm going to grow the 1161.Just trying to keep the myth alive.lol

1/12/2012 1:49:12 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I have a 500 Wallace seed, that I may trade for a highly proven producer.

1/12/2012 2:21:35 PM

Southeast Texas

i got 2 991's i just wont to make that cross.

1/12/2012 5:53:58 PM

Deer Park, WI

Bath- Im personally disagree that same plant reciprocal crosses are genetically the same. I do agree that they are nearly identical, however there are a couple of important factors that need to be considered.

Foremost is maternal inheritance. Both mitochondrial and chloroplastal DNA is exclusively maternally inherited. Unfortunately, we do not know the degree to which this DNA influences fruit size or other observable pumpkin characteristics. It is conceivable that maternal inheritance could contribute to differences between same plant reciprocal crosses.

In defense of your argument, I do believe that reciprocal crosses are, genetically speaking, the closest you can ever come to recreating a specific "hot" seed.

Thus, the 1032 Urena originally discussed is currently the closest thing on the market to the 991 Urena. Is it better or worse? There's no way of knowing until a population of these seeds have been grown.

1/13/2012 7:03:46 AM

Madison,Wisconsin

I planted the 1032 in 2010. It was one of the best growing plants of the 15 I grew that year. But the biggest fruit was only about 700#. My best that year was 1203#. The fruit was the best looking in the patch, a nice orange round fruit, that was almost ribless. Here is a link to a pic in my diary.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=145786

1/13/2012 10:32:02 AM

Madison,Wisconsin

Here is another picture. I guess it wasn't as round as I remember, more longish. Really nice looking though.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=146828

1/13/2012 12:22:51 PM

Littleton, Colorado

I was wondering what you guys' thoughts are in regards to crossing reverse crosses to "preserve" let's say for example: The great proven potential of the 991. Do you think that crossing a 991 with an 1032 would potentially be a better cross than sibbing two 991's? To me, it's shuffling the parental genetic information in just a bit different mix than, say--- sibbing two 991's. I also realize that any sort of attempt at re-making a great seed can be an exercise in futility when it seems that just as the best imaginable 567 Mombert could no longer compete with a 1068 Wallace, which probably couldn't compete with an 1161 Rodonis. (Milestone seeds come along and just keep raising the bar!) Still, I think it might be of value to cross a 991 with it's reverse---the 1032. For that matter, I wonder if anyone has crossed the 1161 with it's reverse--the 1566?

1/14/2012 5:22:52 AM

Germany

Only found a reverse one on pumpkinlink.com:
1155.4 Baumert/Teichert (1566 Rodonis x 1161 Rodonis)

1/14/2012 5:38:09 AM

Littleton, Colorado

Thanks, Pumpking. I just saw it on another thread--Baumert/Teichert did the cross both ways between the 1566 & the 1161> I hope enough of his 1166's & 1155's get grown to give an indication of the potential of these reverse cross crosses! Now, maybe someone will cross the 991 with the 1032 & we could see what the progeny of that might do. I guess as long as there is still a great supply of 1566's, or 1032's, it may not matter, but if crossing reverse crosses is a good thing genetically, then it certainly could be a worthwhile pursuit!

1/14/2012 6:09:35 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

In the case of 1725/1605 Sweet - both in the pair are from the same maternal line: 846 Calai. That's not always the case, but it is for those.

There is some underlying biological reason to expect that one plant as a mother might be ever-so-slightly different as a father, as Joze points out. The reason is that mitochondria (cell power houses) and chloroplasts (the location of photosynthesis) carry a very small amount of DNA that isn’t re-shuffled as a result of normal sexual production of eggs and pollen. Most plants (and people) get this so-called extra-nuclear DNA from only their mother. The mitochondrial DNA is useful for tracking maternal family history, but the role that this extra-nuclear DNA plays in affecting visible traits is vastly over-rated in AG pumpkins.

There are several reasons why I think we can ignore this extra-nuclear DNA in selecting seeds. A couple main ones are:

1. Substantially less than 1% of the genes in a cell are on this extra-nuclear DNA – if there was an effect it would be exceedingly small and we would most likely never notice it.

2. Virtually all of the biggest pumpkins come from the same 3 maternal lines and all 3 have grown 1600+ lbers:

845 Bobier/723 Bobier from the 935 Lloyd line are in a lot of big pumpkins (including all 1068 Wallace maternal offspring like the 1385 Jutras, 1725 Harp.)

898 Knauss from the 1007 Brown line is the maternal line for 998.6 Pukos offspring (including 1689 Jutras)

846 Calai from the 801 Stelts line is in all the 1161 Rodonis offspring (including 1810.5 Stevens and 1725 Sweet)

So once we recognize that the father-mother/mother-father relationship has virtually no effect (limiting or beneficial) on offspring, we can conclude that exact reciprocal crosses (those that are made from the same two plants, one as father other as mother and one as mother and other as father) have virtually the same genetic potential.

1/14/2012 3:54:51 PM

Littleton, Colorado

Thanks Bath,--I'm sure that as the supply of 991's & 1161's dwindle, there will likely be a lot more 1032's & 1566's grown, since as you've pointed out, they really should have virtually the same genetic potential as their reverses have shown to have. And of course the demand for these great seeds will likely diminish anyway as the next milestone seeds raise the bar to 2000 lbs. and beyond!

1/14/2012 6:21:01 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I looked again at AGGC. Actually all 3 maternal lines have a 1700+ lber. Basically I'm saying none of the maternal lines are inherently bad, in fact they all seem capable of excellence.

1/14/2012 7:08:13 PM

Taylorsville, California

Appreciate the input Jose & Scott, thanks for the replys. I've just wondered the last couple years why the 1032 has seen virtually no dirt when other recriprocal crosses such as those listed have done very well,, whether or not the 1032 is as good or better than the 991, who knows until it's been planted a few times, but it seems worth trying

1/14/2012 11:05:26 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

"the two exact same plants".Sorta jumpin in here w/ a semi/or not... nonsence question...have read thru the years that no two seeds are the same?? How does this mix in w/ tryin to quantify or qualify what the outcome will be? Peace, Waye

1/15/2012 1:11:17 AM

Germany

Wayne, either I misunderstood your issue or I have the impression that "the two exact same plants" was leading your mind onto the wrong track. "The two exact same plants" mentioned by bathabitat are better described as "exactly the same set of two plants", not, as one might conclude, "two plants which are exactly the same" (like perfect clones).

1/15/2012 1:25:06 AM

President - GPC

Thanks Bath...very interesting post.....!

What is your opinion on the "lucky seed" trait? What I mean is what separates a good 1161 from a fair 1161, from a super 1161 assuming all growing conditions equal. There must be a super gene in there somewhere...a trait we have isolated within this three headed line.....??

1/19/2012 10:30:05 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Before I post on Joze's new thread. One more thing on the subject of reciprocal crosses - re: similarity of 1161/1566 (from last year, but still appropriate):

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=373859

Be sure to read the message subject or it won't make sense.

The night following that post...same price discrepancy. ha ha. It blows my mind, but oh well. :)

1/20/2012 2:35:34 PM

when pumpkinlink was up and running there was an option to see what a pumpkin grew as a pollinator. Some seeds seemed to pollinate bigger compared to others.

11/6/2013 11:18:09 AM