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Massachusetts

I'm trying to understand whether there is more seed vigor or potential to grow big if the seed was grown by an experienced grower. Example, 2 growers make the same cross. Grower 1 grows to 1600 lbs. Grower 2 grows to 800 lbs. Assume for a moment that the genetics are identical. Do I have just as much of a shot with the seed from the 800 as the 1600??
Thanks, Tom

3/4/2012 2:39:33 PM

Jefferson Ohio

Tom i have often wondered the same !! would seed A have just as much vigor as seed B assuming that all other genetics , growing invroment, and weather, were an identical match..(clearly impossible) but for the sake of argument and fun discution lets say they were. would the seed that grew a kin to 1600 lbs stand as good or better chance than a seed that only got to 800 lbs. im putting my guess (and only that) on the seed that grew to 1600 lbs to be the clear winner of the two. there has got to be some scientific reason to a seed having some memory as to its parents genetical raising..i do know that some crosses love warmer weather (991 ureana) and some crosses tend to be early or late growers (1725 harp...seems to me to put on better than average weight in sept),ect. so there has to be some memory buit into the genetics as to weather it will grow hard and fast (like its 1600 lb mom) or will it just lumber along (like its 800 lb mom did). i know i havent answered your question but i do share the same thoughts as you. i will be intrested to see how others weigh in on this.

3/4/2012 3:35:51 PM

Littleton, Colorado

Here's a bit of a comparison for you Tom: The Biz grew a 1019 in 2008. He used the 1385 Jutras he grew that year for the pollinator. I grew a 50lb. pumpkin---way out on a side of a side of a side vine of a very aggressive 1535 Glasier plant. I used the same 1385 Jutras as the pollinator (for my A.G. that ended up smaller than most competitive field pumpkins.) When Jimmy grew his 1019 the next year, it produced the new Colorado record of 1283 lbs. for him. Then in 2010, just for grins, I grew 2 plants out of my puny little 50. The plant I gave considerable care to grew the current Colorado record of 1308 for me. My other 50 (which was fairly neglected) still grew a 1067. So especially in the case of my 1067, I believe that the great genetics came through in spite of considerable neglect. So it seems that the 50's great potential wasn't hindered by lack of nutrients to it (or a really late pollination date of August 8th!). I hope this helps!

3/4/2012 5:12:09 PM

Massachusetts

Thanks to both for the thoughtful responses. The Anklebarry story is exactly what I was wondering. I want to make two crosses this year. I have about 1000 sq. ft. My plan was to start both and watch closely. If one takes off, I will give over more of the patch and go for weight with that one. I would like to continue to grow the other for "next year" with a cross that I like. I would grow the other in a smaller area and just be content to get it to the finsh line. Sound like a plan. Thanks

3/4/2012 5:58:34 PM

Linden, Mi.,

The genetics, are there, the size of the pumpkin should not matter. There seems to always be stronger seeds in any group.

3/4/2012 7:16:24 PM

Muddy Waters

seeds are like people (Siblings)Some tall, Some short, some average.The grower & soil still has tremendous effect on how big it gets.

3/4/2012 7:30:35 PM

Colorado

Tom the genetic potential out of the 800 and 1600 wont be the same cause each seed is different.Barry's example is small pumpkin(grown in poor conditions) from two parents with great genetics will still have great genetics in its seeds. The question is-why was grower 2's fruit only 800 lbs?.If his other fruit were 400 lbs and his pb was 700lbs then the 800lber may be real good genetically-maybe better than the 1600.. If the 800 was the smallest in his patch then maybe a dud. You also want to see a picture of the 800-does it look like the parent your after?Again the potential from the 800/1600 isnt equal cause the genetics will not be the same.

3/4/2012 8:17:46 PM

Massachusetts

Thanks Joe. I (think) I understand some basic genetics. I would like to ask the question again to be clear. My goal is to grow a couple of my favorite crosses this year (2012) without regard for growing a big pumpkin. My only interest is producing the seeds I want for next year (2013). Does it matter if I grow my seeds this year to 500 lbs or 1500 lbs? To me, it would be the same seed. Right? What am I missing?
Thanks
Tom

3/5/2012 9:25:01 AM

Colorado

Nope,as long as you keep the pumpkin healthy so that the seeds get mature. The genetics are what they are.

3/5/2012 10:57:18 AM

Stanwood, Washington

I am no expert but others have told me that enviromental factors can cause genetic mutations with in the seeds. So theoretically, even if you had two genetically identical seeds with identical pollinators and grew one in ideal conditions and one in poor conditions theoretically they could produce varying genetics in their offspring based soley on enviromental influences.

3/5/2012 7:41:20 PM

Littleton, Colorado

Tom, if you haven't already seen the diary of "Greenhouse Grower", Mark is doing some great genetic crosses during the winter. I expect that some great pumpkins and squash will be grown from some of the wintertime crosses that he is doing. It shouldn't matter one whit what the size of the parent pumpkin happened to be, as long as the seeds' embryos are developed enough for them to germinate.
And Joe--Poor conditions? The 1535 1/2 Glasier was at least a 2000 sq. foot plant with a main vine 85 feet long, with at least 10 decent sized pumpkins, the biggest one-out 32 feet 10 inches on the main, being 694 lbs., the littlest being 50 lbs. The 50 was pollinated way, way out on a side vine-- on August 8th. I guess if there was a poor condition, it was simply that at 5800' elevation, the nights are already getting pretty chilly by the middle of August!
Have fun growing some great genetics plants, Tom!

3/5/2012 11:09:19 PM

Massachusetts

I just checked out Greenhouse Grower and now I want a greenhouse! Looks like geeat winter fun. From practical advice from experienced growers, they tell me not to worry about the size of the fruit...keep the pumpkin healthy and maintain the genetics. Sounds like good advice (and what I want to hear). But the discussion of genetics vs environment certainly doesn't end there. I have read a bunch of articles on the subject of "epigenetics" recently. Experts in this field have shown that environmental factors do not alter the genetic code but can influence the behavior of the genetic make-up by causing some genes to express strongly and others to express weakly. They have shown that these tendencies can be passed on in just one generation. So just maybe a large pumpkin signals those large pumpkin genes to express freely and a small pumpkin does not. Supports the Captain 97 post. Read...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952313,00.html

A great human story but think about how it might effect pumpkins similarly.
Tom Keenan

3/6/2012 8:16:20 PM

Colorado

A simple example of environment influence is pres. daves 1807.5. All the green on that pumpkin would have been a nice orange if he had not placed towels on top.

3/7/2012 12:37:41 PM

Colorado

Hi barry,wasnt being negative on "poor conditons".Just saying the 50 todd would have potentially been much bigger had it been set earlier,only one on the plant,set on main etc. Ideal conditions -would have been a better term

3/7/2012 12:47:19 PM

Littleton, Colorado

Yes Joe, it is a fact that late June, and a much smaller plant would have been way more ideal! I'm just so glad that I did that late cross, and that it had enough time to mature some seeds! The 1385 Jutras has certainly proven it's tremendous genetic potential many times over, in the last 5 years!

3/7/2012 1:45:05 PM

President - GPC

Yes that 1385 sure did.....Three state recordZ in fact....

Colorado, Colorado, and New Mexico off my 895 Grande...that was pollinated with the 1385....

Will there be more?

3/7/2012 2:03:47 PM

Littleton, Colo

Tom, great question and many great responses.

3/8/2012 9:50:58 PM

Ashland, KY

I've been reviewing some older posts now the the season is getting into full gear. (and I'm recouping from surgery)

This is an interesting question, and some folks referred to the environment impacting plants with identical genetic parents. Sounds good! Looking at Pharmer Tom's question,I bet that a process known as "epigenetics" would cause the genetic activity of the seed from the 800 lb fruit would be different from those of the seed from the 1600 lb fruit, even if the fruits were from the same parents and the seeds had the same genes.

It stands to reason that the 1600 lb fruit came from a plant that was grown under very different conditions compared to the 800 lb plant. Assume that the same genes are in the seeds from the 800 as those in the 1600 (not a great assumption, but these are complex genetics!), the phenomenon of epigenetics can impact how those genes are expressed. This is the key to my story. Say "Gene A" is a gene that contributes to big growth, and it's in seeds from both 800 and 1600. But, Gene A, although in both seeds, is expressed at higher levels in the 1600 seed, because it was modified by epigenetics during the growth of the fruit. Same gene in both seeds, but when they start to grow the genes are not as "active" in each seed. The seed from the less healthy (800 lb) plant would be less active in it's progeny. Even though the gene would have the same exact DNA sequence.

Hope this makes sense! Healthy and robust giants produce seeds whose DNA (genes) is modified in a manner different from the genes from genetically identical plants grown under sub-optimal conditions. Epigenetics! This is why there are subtle differences between identical twins, and even larger differences in cloned mammals.

Respectfully,
EP

4/7/2012 11:42:54 PM

Ashland, KY

Hey all, again. I am pasting an additional question from Pharmer: "Does it matter if I grow my seeds this year to 500 lbs or 1500 lbs? To me, it would be the same seed. Right? What am I missing?"

I suggest that, no, they would not be the same. This is part speculation, but also part knowledge of molecular genetics. So, yes the genes would be the same, but their level of expression/activity might not not. As the seeds are fertilized and the embryos develop in each seed, I think that these genes themselves have the potential to be modified in a manner which will have an impact on how active (the level of gene expression) the genes are in those seeds once they are eventually planted and grown. The genes in the seeds from the 500 pounder would be not be as active when those seeds are planted, compared to the seeds from the 1500 pounder. Again, exact same genes, but epigenetic modification of the genes under different conditions (i.e. 500 vs 1500 pounder) makes the seeds behave differently once planted.

This is more speculation than fact since this phenomenon (epigenetics) is only now being understood in human biology; pumpkin genetics are a bit behind. My idea definitely needs more research! I'm not familiar with the plant literature, but this type of thing happens all the time in the animal kingdom.

Thanks
EP

4/7/2012 11:56:22 PM

Ashland, KY

Last post, promise! My long ramblings are basically supporting what Captain 97 said on 3/5. Captain's was much more concise! As well as what Pharmer Tom said....I really must not reply to posts when recovering from surgery!!!!!

EP

4/8/2012 12:01:02 AM

Goodwood, Ontario, Canada

Here is my two cents after scouring the internet for research papers on plant mutations. Plants react to their environment, adjusting all aspects of the plant structure based upon light, water, PH etc. It only stands to reason that the production of seeds within a plant will be adjusted based upon the same environmental factors. The big question though is "what modifications result from poor growing conditions". One can argue that a plant might devote more energy to seed growing when it is growing in a challenged environment (preservation of species). Alternatively one can argue that a challenged environment leads to challenged seeds. My opinion is that the slight genetic mutations produce seeds that should be ideal for the growing environment of the parent. Planting a seed grown in a poor environment might be a slight handicap. But what do I know...there are millions of hours of research to be done by academics before we might every receive a definitive answer.

4/8/2012 8:52:01 AM

Ashland, KY

Great point, pburdon! I have re-read all my posts from last night and must apologize for jumping into the conversation before I read all the other great comments to the original post. I did just repeat a lot of what other folks said! Duh! on my part. I was both woozy from my trip to the hospital, and excited that I might have had something to contrbute to this group of sages!
EP

4/8/2012 11:31:53 PM