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Hanson Ma

I was wondering what others think grows the better/bigger pumpkin? I figure the pumpkin is already on the vine. So what does the polinator really bring to the potential out come? I've looked at some crosses but have not found anything that says mother x father vs father x mother can be figured out for possable better/bigger out come.

11/3/2013 2:39:31 PM

Germany

1) The pollinator does not influence the size/weight of the pumpkin which grows from the female pollinated by this pollinator.
2) The pollinator will influence the next generation (i.e., the genetics in the seeds of the pumpkin)
3) For direct comparison as to what kind of influence came from the mother (the plant which grew the pumpkin) and from the pollinator, then one would have to compare the performance of seeds of true inverse crosses, such as 1161 Rodonis and 1566 Rodonis. There are many crosses which look similar (e.g., there are crosses of 1385 Jutras x 1161 Rodonis and there are crosses of 1161 Rodonis x 1385 Jutras, which just look like the reverse crosses, but they came from different plants), and therefore one cannot compare their performance.
4) Conclusion: Find sets of true inverse crosses and find out if one of them is significantly better, and then find out if this feature comes from the mother or father plant which went into that cross.

11/3/2013 3:40:25 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

good question!! 2009 Wallace. What did the 1409 Miller grow?? Make you wonder just how important the size of the father is!!

11/3/2013 3:51:41 PM

Germany

Exactly, that´s the question. We only know that the 1409 Miller grew the 1104(est) Wallace (which was much smaller than the 2009, of course), and we can obtain information such as the 1104(est) Wallace was grown on a plant which was almost dead and then decided to grow like hell and the new growth eventually made the 1104 grow to its final weight. We don´t know (because we cannot know) if the 1409 Miller plant would have grown a much bigger pumpkin (heavier than 2009 lbs) if the plant hadn´t had any serious problems in its early days. Also, we cannot know if the 1725 x 1409 cross or the reverse (the 1409 x 1725) cross would be the better cross, because the 1104(est) Wallace is a different cross, not the reverse of the 2009.

11/3/2013 4:03:15 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

not just another pretty face here buddy! lol

11/3/2013 4:10:24 PM

father more important than you realize

11/3/2013 5:08:28 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

please tell us how Don??

11/3/2013 5:55:05 PM

Wi

Rons 1409 was also on insane growing pace.....for what its worth.

11/3/2013 7:21:28 PM

Hanson Ma

I understand the father effects offspring but how does it effect the pollinated pumpkin

11/3/2013 7:23:13 PM

west central IN/East central IL

Absolutely 0 nitro3

11/3/2013 7:41:35 PM

Germany

Apparently, nitro3 hasn´t read my 1st line.

11/4/2013 12:45:25 AM

Hanson Ma

I did read it. I'm a trifle deaf in this ear. LOL.

11/4/2013 4:40:55 AM

Germany

No worries, as long as others shout the same things into your other ear everything should be fine ;-) ("megakin" did a good job as a megaphone, I suppose).

11/4/2013 4:51:22 AM

Germany

The pollinator topic has been discussed couple times before, and I recall there was such a discussion which wasn´t too lengthy, so check out this thread and things might become clear (if they aren´t yet).

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=449792

11/4/2013 5:00:31 AM

Eurasia

Pumpking, I´m sorry to disturb your glory days here.
You didn´t make your PhDs in natural science, I think.
When Pumpking´s dominant gestures are broken, we might talk about scientifically proved outcomes that show the eminent enhancing effect of the pollinator for the weight of growing fruits. Also the shape is greatly influenced by the pollinator to see in the first year on the growing fruit. Since I work with interspecific crosses, I see this effects every year.

11/4/2013 6:05:21 AM

Belgium

oh shut up , sience is only in theory it's the real thing that counts and in real time it showes that it's not always the same some do this and some do that , you should know that by know

11/4/2013 7:41:18 AM

Eurasia

The straight and level truth is a Belgian waffle.
That´s the full monty.

11/4/2013 9:13:40 AM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

Had some fp's run into some yellow sqaush one year all the pumpkins in that erea had warts other side of plant was normal.not experienced as yaw but just cant see how the male has little effect if the female want last long without the male.

11/4/2013 9:36:10 AM

Torrance, Ca.

This is " Dejavu " at its finest!

11/4/2013 9:38:55 AM

Belgium

no sence talking to a guy who think he is superior above everyone

11/4/2013 11:05:14 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

sense is not even in his vocabulary...Yardman those warts on you FP were most likely due to Mosiac Virus...not from pollination.

11/4/2013 1:11:56 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

I think time for some on this thread to stay calm. Lets keep antagonism a bio-chemistry term and not something the sheriff and deputy have to step in to stop.

11/4/2013 1:42:47 PM

norway , maine

the sheriff is on stand-by...

11/4/2013 1:58:08 PM

Quincy, CA

I still don't think the 1409 Miller gets enough credit.
I believe it accounts for half of the genetics in the seeds that grew the 2328, 2032, 2009 and 1874.5.
And it provided three/fourths of the genes in the seed that grew the 1894.
The Wallaces had to cut their 1409 back to 50 sq. ft. when it taped at 300 because of soil issues and it still grew to 1104.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=461263

11/4/2013 2:03:12 PM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

Aww ok shannon wasnt sure they look just like a sqaush skin all warted up.thanks for correction

11/4/2013 3:42:30 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

So is the deputy

11/4/2013 4:13:12 PM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

The pollinator in some sweet corn varieties effects the ear of corn's flavor. Size may be effected also. I think we lack usable evidence though for pumpkins, so we assume it has no effect.

11/4/2013 6:33:43 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

John the seeds are affected...you eat the seeds of sweet corn. Peppers can be the same way

11/4/2013 8:36:23 PM

NE Kansas

The male plant should be selected for exaggerated feminine dimorphic traits. In other words, the male plant should display decidedly female characteristics; ie. large female reproductive parts and relatively few male flowers. The plant that is masculine in appearance is going to be less likely to grow a large pumpkin. Therefore the direct effect is definitely given by the choice of pollinator, but only before pollination takes place. But if you grew multiples of the same plants and made the same cross with each pair, you would still need to allow for variable trait expression within that same generation unless you have previously welded for two or more generations.

11/4/2013 10:40:44 PM

NE Kansas

*previously selfed.

11/4/2013 10:42:20 PM

Eugene,OR

I agree that the 1409 miller is an exceptional seed & pollinator. I grew 2 seeds this year with 1409 parentage & they went very heavy (1578 Pugh +9% & 1352 Pugh). All of Tim mathison's pumpkins were 1409 descendants. I know what I'm growing next year!

11/4/2013 10:48:14 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I think we need to break this down and state a few things which appear to be real with a reasonable degree of confidence...

1) The pollinator doesn't affect the mother's genetics or the basic genetics within the fruit, with the exception of the seed.

2) A fruit that is not pollinated will usually abort. This suggests that something happens, hormonally, chemically, or whatever within the plant or the fruit which causes the fruit to thrive, or not.

The question is, does one male matter over another, whether the fruit grows... fast or slow, or...? (And if so, how do you determine it in some sort of controlled way?)

11/5/2013 5:21:48 PM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

I always thought seeds were part of the fruit. I guess if they aren't then my example that the pollinator can have an effect on the fruit could be misleading. I wouldn't be surprised though if eventually a "superdaddy pollinator or pollination technique" creates such a hormonal change that growth could be affected. :)

11/5/2013 5:39:12 PM

Hanson Ma

I really didn't think this was going to bring so much to the table. I think I'll keep researching more. It definatly has me rethinking how I'll choose my pumpkin stock for next year and I haven't even received all the seeds I've asked for.

11/5/2013 5:50:58 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

Take a look at Tim Mathison's growing season and what he accomplished with not 1,not 2 but 3 UNPROVEN seeds.In my mind the man could grow an 1800lb pumpkin with a seed from home depot!!!!

11/5/2013 6:53:29 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

a related thread from a few years ago:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=373206

11/5/2013 7:40:41 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

This one's even more closely related to the current thread:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=423307

11/5/2013 7:43:50 PM

NE Kansas

There does seem to be a hormonal induction effected by the virility of the pollen during pollen germination. A male pollinator that is strongly female dimorphic seems to promote a greater level of female sex expression in the developing fruit. This causes me to believe that growing a pollinator in a bucket for an abundance of male flowers is detrimental to its end purpose, it is male dimorphic. Hormones need to carry strongly female messages in order to get the gene expression we want; a large female fruit.

11/5/2013 11:06:36 PM

When pumpkinlink was running there was an option to see what a seed pollinated. Some pumpkins seemed to do better than others.

11/6/2013 11:22:00 AM

Colorado

d nelson-very interesting topic. The only plants Ive had over the years that may of had stronger female traits were the ones with above average #'s of female blossums. Would you suggest using those plants as pollinators?

11/6/2013 12:22:20 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

I'm still trying to figure out how the size of the father is more important than we realize?
1385Jutras(1068x998.6)
1068Wallace(845x898)
985Werner(1370x898Knauss)
1421Stelts(1385x904Stelts)
1495Stelts(1161x904Stelts)
1634Werner(1421x1236Harp)
901Hunt(1093x898)
1807Stelts(1495x1234Stelts)

11/6/2013 12:36:30 PM

not( SIZE) of father but what realy was the fathers background

1385 jutras-- 998.6--was a 1420 x 1446 (crossed 2 biggest of the time)

1068 wallace-- 898 knauss (1007Brown x 1048 Cox) 2 biggest or close to biggest of its time

from some of those seeds posted from donki take the biggest grown from a 1385 and biggest grown from a 1068 the males make up the 1409

11/6/2013 1:42:38 PM

Hanson Ma

Don,
You just referenced what I was thinking about this morning. You really need to look at the mother and grandfather in in the mail lineage.

11/6/2013 2:13:36 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

RE: The father of the seeds we call 1385 Jutras was the 1689 Jutras World Record. That is, 1/2 the genetics of the 1385 seed are from 1385, 1/2 are from the 1689.

The 998.6 is actually the paternal grandmother of the 1385 seeds, genetically speaking. That's a common misconception. The way seeds are labeled makes it pretty tricky to interpret the real genetic heritage of a seed.

To complicate things we call the fruit (the 1385 Jutras) the same thing as the seeds inside the fruit (also called the 1385 Jutras) and those two (fruit and seed) are decidedly different genetically. (i.e. fruit is 100% 1385, seeds are 50% 1385, 50% 1689)

Some on DONKIN's list have unknown (to me) fathers, we only know the paternal grandmother and that actually isn't as useful as you might think (but still somewhat useful).

Off the top of my head:
1421 Stelts had Dave's 1600+ lber as the genetic father.
1634 Werner had a 1400+ lber as the genetic father.
1161 Rodonis had the 1566 Rodonis as the real genetic father.
Add the 1385, I just discussed, and you can hopefully see that the father matters. That should make sense because:

the father is half of the genetics of the seed.

11/6/2013 7:03:27 PM

NE Kansas

So on the fathers side we need to look at the mother and grandfather, and on the mother's side we need to look at the father and grandmother. So if those lineages are known and are known to carry the same trait and better yet are inverse relationships of each other; is this the magic bullet so to speak?

11/6/2013 7:29:48 PM

NE Kansas

Is this the key to unlock the hormones in the currently developing fruit, and what effect might it have on the.next generation? Is it the maximum potential of that trait and the next generation mutates? Or do we then skip a generation through rececivity and then need a hybrid cross from a concurrent breeding program to further unlock the trait?

11/6/2013 7:35:50 PM

NE Kansas

It appears be critical that the pollinator is in prime health at the time of pollination in order to ensure a high rate of pollen germination. Low germination rates appear to negatively affect hormone transmission and therefore negative gene expression. A late abort has been shown to be connected with poor pollination conditions. Exceptional growth might then be connected with prime pollination conditions. A study of how honeybees and squash bees conduct pollen gathering might be in order. This strengthens my feeling that there is a directly effected hormonal response to the male, both genetically and conditionally.

11/6/2013 11:18:28 PM