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Willamette Valley, Oregon

Just worked up some numbers from the GPC data specifically looking at reciprocal crosses re: the mother x father / father x mother question.

The 1161/1566 Rodonis reciprocal cross results:

1566 median offspring weight (4 of them) = 1232 lbs
1161 median offspring weight (6 of them) = 1210 lbs

No statistical difference (concurring with past years' results), and just about at close as two seeds can get.

Looking at the 1756/1649 Lancaster, a reciprocal cross made last year:

1756 median offspring weight (19 of them) = 1133 lbs
1649 median offspring weight (4 of them) = 1087 lbs

Again no statistical difference there and very close to each other in the overall list of median offspring weights, as well. 1756 had a higher max offspring weight, but that's expected by chance because of the higher number of fruit grown.

mother x father or father x mother, it doesn't matter.

11/7/2013 7:29:05 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I should clarify - It doesn't matter in AG pumpkin crosses.

There are some instances where the mitochondria and chloroplast DNA are different between a mother and father (inter-species hybrids and the like, or some other specific traits), but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

11/7/2013 7:34:31 PM

NE Kansas

Any data for reciprocal crosses for three generations (ie. grandparents on down)?

11/7/2013 10:02:56 PM

Germany

@ D Nelson: That sounds interesting, reciprocal crosses of the type
(A x B) x (B x A) and (B x A) x (A x B) between the two plants which themselves are offspring of a pair of reciprocal crosses (something like 1161 x 1566 and 1566 x 1161). Probably hard to find such sets of crosses which then got planted frequently to allow for statistically reasonable conclusions.

11/8/2013 5:53:05 AM

Germany

Found such a set of crosses:
161.5 Radach 12 is 1176 Lombardi x 1027 Lombardi
405 Radach 12 is 1027 Lombardi x 1176 Lombardi (same plants as for the above), and the Lombardi crosses 1027 and 1176 are reverse crosses as well (1421.5 Stelts x 1161 Rodonis and 1161 Rodonis x 1421.5 Stelts, respectively).

161.5 Radach = [(1421.5 x 1161) x (1161 x 1421.5)]
405 Radach = [(1161 x 1421.5) x (1421.5 x 1161)]

11/8/2013 6:30:17 AM

Germany

Time needs to tell how productive the 161.5 and 405 seeds are.

11/8/2013 6:31:43 AM

Colorado

scott, do you think mitochondrila or cholorplast DNA could be different between a pumpkin and a squash? if so, in a mixed cross do you think there could be an advantage having one or the other on the female or male side? one thing i have been wondering is if there is an advantage to the 89* shymanski (female was pumpkin a few generations back, 1531 haist) compared to your 717 or my 230 from this year (where female is a squash -941* sherwood). I almost think of the 89* as a "green pumpkin" and the 717 and 230 as "yellow squash". does a green pumpkin have a better shot at a big weight than a yellow squash? I wonder.

11/8/2013 8:50:17 AM

Springfield, Missouri

With the rate at which mitochondrial DNA experiences mutation it seems very unlikely that this would be the benefit of crossing pumpkins with squash.

11/8/2013 10:40:22 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Interesting question, Pete. I'm not sure, but I'd guess it probably wouldn't matter too much versus the other nuclear DNA variation between the two.

I also haven't looked back at the squash lineages to see how bottlenecked the maternal heritage is. I'd guess it's pretty narrow too.

11/9/2013 10:49:54 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Pete,

895.5 Hester 2000 (900 Lyons) is the maternal line for every squash on the top 10 largest list. I checked all the squash seeds I had, which wasn't too many, but they were also all 895.5 Hester maternal line.

I came across this thread about the 900 Lyons:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=24&p=63484

11/11/2013 3:23:42 AM

Cornelius, Oregon

Oh the 895... LOL Wanna grow one?

Scott, after reading my ramblings in that old 2004 post, what (if anything) makes any sense?

I also believe in the theory of 'yellow squash' and 'green pumpkins' I think my 1029 is a PRIME example of a 'green pumpkin' and many of the 611 and 862 offspring were 'yellow squash'

My latest theory (that goes back to my last growing season) is that in squash at least, the 'heavy to chart' gene comes from the dad's side.

And as a passing thought...oh how I wish that 986 would not have gone down....still haunts me and it was almost 14 years ago.

11/13/2013 12:26:22 PM

Stanwood, Washington

Pumpking,
The plant that grew my 161.5 had lots of problems with deformed blossoms. Only managed to get the one set in late August and it stopped growing by mid september (thus the 161.5 weight). The 405 was a damaged Pumpkin that split in July. I planted a 405 this year and it displayed the same characteristics as the the plant that grew the 161.5 with deformed blossoms. I think there are genetic issues in the line so I doubt there will ever be much of consequence grown out of those seeds. If anyone wans to try I will send them to you though.

11/13/2013 1:56:32 PM

Germany

Oh well, I see, this set of seeds probably isn´t the right start for such an experiment. Now I recall I noticed your troubles with one of those plants, because my plant off the 1176 (last year) also had many deformed females and I thought there could be a genetic problem. Your plant grown off your 405 seems to underline that it most likely was and is a genetics thing which caused the troubles, because everything else you had planted this year appeared to do much better for you.

11/13/2013 2:02:11 PM

Eurasia

Lombardy unwittingly grows interspecific with the C. maxima turbaniformis `Marina di Chioggia´, and so the 1027 grew a serious wheel with a sink that burst around the blossom. Matt, if you do still have seed of this wheel 405, I would like to buy some for stretto breeding. ludwig.ammer@gmail.com

11/14/2013 4:35:06 AM

Eurasia

Oh, Matt! Now that I have looked at your 161.5: please could I have seed of that one too?

11/14/2013 4:39:15 AM