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Omaha, Ne.

Will the male pollinator play a part in the first season genetics . Or will it have to wait till the second season to show the characteristics of the male pollinator . Simply put will the female pumpkin look anything like the male pollinator

12/3/2014 10:18:29 AM

Dorval,Quebec

second season effect only other than helping the female develop

12/3/2014 12:44:16 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

WHAT? Let me see If I understand your question. I will use two C Maxima to explain. If I cross a Female Atlantic Giant with a Male Turks Turban. Then plant those seeds. Will the resulting offspring, show charecteristics of the Turks Turban. If that is your question yes. Although you can not neccesarily control which traits it takes on. Does it get the round baboon butt or the tri color. We used to play around a lot with these crosses for some interesting pumpkins

12/3/2014 1:25:17 PM

Georgetown, Ontario

I think Darren is asking "if you pollinate a pumpkin in June/July will the pumpkin that you harvest in Sept/Oct show any characteristics of the pollinator?" In that case the answer is like Mike said, no. You can pollinate it with any Cucurbita maxima (like a turks turban or hubbard squash) and it makes no difference in what it looks like that year. You take the seeds out of that pumpkin and plant them and next year you will get the genetics from both showing up like Shannon describes. Whenever I grow my own seeds I seem to get the colour from the female and the shape (ribbiness...if thats even a word) from the pollinator. Not sure if thats always the case but thats what usually happens to me.

12/3/2014 2:14:29 PM

Omaha, Ne.

My question is. If crossed an orange pumpkin with a male plant of a green pumpkin would the pumpkin have green in it at all. I know the generations after would have green.

12/3/2014 2:16:34 PM

Omaha, Ne.

Yes that is what I'm asking Shepherd. So if I want a pumpkin to look a certain way. If it is crossed it is guaranteed not to look that way. So many people make excellent crosses but then don't grow the pumpkin after the first year to see what they would have produced. So why go through such a big trouble crossing seeds unless it's a two year commitment.

12/3/2014 2:21:55 PM

Bethlehem CT

That's true Darren. So many good crosses out there, so few get planted. The past couple of years I have not controlled my crosses. I am glad most growers still do control their crosses though, because it makes for fun trading. Next year I have plans to do a few controlled crosses again.

12/3/2014 3:24:44 PM

Whitehall Montana

I think most are looking for weight in a pumpkin,speed of growth.There are a lot of growers looking for orange color.So if you are looking for color,cross with color,if you are looking for size,cross for size.

12/3/2014 3:28:48 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

The Answer is NO

12/3/2014 4:06:45 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

There are very few vegetables that pollination effects trait. Corn is one of them. Peppers also

12/3/2014 4:09:13 PM

Wixom MI.

Darren has a good point, so many growers go out of their way to make great crosses and then never plant them because their pumpkin didn't get as big as someone elses. Yet matt showed us that you can take two good pumpkin genetics and cross them and only grow a 220 snow ball and the genetics will still be their in the following year. But if anyone else did this then no one would have planted the seeds from a 220 pumpkin.

12/3/2014 5:35:52 PM

Guelph, ONT

A little off topic but..

I`d like to see Darren cross his 1399 with the 1817 McConkie BIg orange with Big orange!!

12/3/2014 5:45:15 PM

Omaha, Ne.

Dam is that thing real. Its the first time seeing the 1817 McConkie. would like to see some better pictures. I may be in love. May be beer goggles though.

12/3/2014 7:55:16 PM

Eurasia

Let me show you a concrete example with a interspecific cross of Cucurbita maxima pollinated by a C. moschata.
Mother 'Red Melk' had a red hardwired embrionic fruit behind the flower but father 'Bueng Karn' made the fruit so steel grey, that no red could be developed in the parenteral generation!
http://acorneti.ucoz.de/photo/mel_karn_045/1-0-1
And let me tell another example:
Boston Marrow was pollinated by the New England Blue Hubbard (NEB), and I harvested a deep orange fruit with the humps of NEB. Color was a deeper orange as commonly seen on the skin of BM. I think, that the resistance to NEB´s blue made a better orange color.
If you want to go the opposite way, NEB never turns to orange and always becomes blue. When the flat and oval 'Bleu de Hongrie' is pollinated by a very deep orange hubbard squash, the parenteral fruit yet becomes spiky with humbs and a hubbard-tip on both sides, but it never turns orange.

12/6/2014 9:30:17 AM

Upa Creek, Mo

Right, son cannot look like dad, but the grandson can!

12/6/2014 12:31:44 PM

Lodi, California

The pollinator does not do anything to the pumpkin but provide a gamete (pollin) that is used to produce the genetic composition of the future generation. If you place this question on the reproduction of animals, it would be like asking does the father have an influence on the genetic composition of the mother, if that helps to clear it up.

12/6/2014 9:34:38 PM

Eurasia

Sorry, but you´re completely wrong, Ashton and Luke.
Please watch all the examples, that I have shown at gardenweb.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/gourds/msg1014481110660.html?4 Giant Palav Kadoo from the AG pollinator on the mother plant in the first year: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/gourds/msg1014481110660.1113365610195.jpg
Or my Hubbard fruit with the humps of New England Blue on the mother plant of the Boston Marrow in the first year after pollinating a Boston Marrow baby behind the flower:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/gourds/msg111202351696.html?1
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/gourds/msg111202351696.jpg
And today I opened my first C. maxima 'Mel Karn' an interspecific cross with the mother C. maxima 'Red Melk' and the father C. moschata 'Bueng Karn' pollinated in 2014, and the red fruit is steel grey and in color nearly like the black musque from Thailand but still has the mirror of the mother:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/gourds/msg0911104118366.html?2

12/7/2014 1:25:39 PM

Lodi, California

Yes, biology is wrong and Ludwig is right. All of science is wrong, in fact, if Ludwig says so.

12/7/2014 2:29:20 PM

Eurasia

Biology is on my side, Mr. Ashton.
But how stupid is your theory, which is totally anti-science!?
You are the son of your father too, I think.
But you deny it.
You can clone yourself, and you will become the brother of the genetical product heavily influenced by your father.
Like the fusion of your mother´s and your father´s genes in your genetics a pumpkin is the genetically fused product of the plant with the embrionic fruit behind the flower and the pollinator.
You can´t simply ignore science and my wonderful examples, which answer the question of this thread.

12/7/2014 4:49:38 PM

Lodi, California

Wait, back up. What I am saying is that the male does not affect the female, but rather the offspring is the first generation that experiences the fathers genes. You are saying that the father affects the genes of the mother. Is that what the standing of our argument is?

12/7/2014 6:42:48 PM

Lodi, California

For if that is the standing, you are saying that the fathers genes alter the mothers genes. If that is so, then your love of breeding triambles and atlantic giants would produce a green atlantic giant (though not a true green showking C. Maxima). As you can see here: http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=98523. Please go and buy a biology textbook, it would help you a lot.

12/7/2014 6:49:52 PM

Torrance, Ca.

14 year old against grown man.

Very nice Ash!

12/7/2014 6:55:33 PM

Lodi, California

The definition of genetic inheritance is "Transmitted through genes that have been passed from parents to their offspring (children)." Notice how it says genes transmitted from parents to their offspring, not from parents to themselves.

12/7/2014 6:57:19 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

As usual, Beethoven is playing the wrong symphony.

12/7/2014 7:21:19 PM

norway , maine

I do love me some of his sweet stretto bred music

12/7/2014 8:14:38 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Darren, hope you got the answer with all this

12/7/2014 8:34:10 PM

Central NY

I say prolly not

12/7/2014 8:37:10 PM

Omaha, Ne.

My real question that I wanted to clarify was that why so many spend so much time to choosing they're perfect cross but never growing it. I was just thinking I must be missing something if you're not willing to spend two years then why make a cross at all. Just grow the one you like and self it.I wait to see what the amazing color of the 1107 Zunio will do for my 1399

12/7/2014 9:10:08 PM

Whitehall Montana

Some growers and myself are looking for a silver bullet cross that will be a contender at the scales.Every year I do a little better but seems I am not satisfied,so I continue to try another and another cross hoping a monster will grow.I guess I lack patience.

12/7/2014 9:44:40 PM

Dorval,Quebec

Ashton,your example/statement/idea of father's genes affecting/not affecting the mother is such a simple,concrete way of explaining the pollinator's effect...Darn good!...I'll use it...

12/7/2014 10:34:21 PM

Dorval,Quebec

..father's genes affecting the mother's genes....I better get it right,lol

12/7/2014 10:37:20 PM

Wixom MI.

So if im seeing a victoria secret model and i pollinate her really,really good, she not going to start looking like danny deveto in a few years is she ??? Lol...😊

12/8/2014 12:50:29 AM

Upa Creek, Mo

lmao

12/8/2014 7:38:53 AM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

metaxenia phenomenon in cucurbits?
not impossible and may have happened many times already!
choose your pollinator wisely! good luck :)

12/8/2014 8:35:01 AM

Rhode Island

there was such a simple answer to darrens question but it took a 14 year old to get it right? good job ash.stick with it and some day you will be a champion.
pap

12/8/2014 9:14:43 AM

Eurasia

Ashton, you did not read exactly enough.
But you like to be adored by the elder souses and potheads here.
What was the question of this thread now?
Why don´t you accept my hard facts with pictures to show you the change in color and/or shape in the parenteral generation, which is the crossed fruit of the first year.
Ashton, you did not read my words honestly, because you do not like to accept proven science, and that is a fascistic manner, that you learnt here with Dick Wallace´s maffia.
That is a true word, and you should try to wean that American fascism.

12/8/2014 10:27:38 AM

Eurasia

US-Americans did not accept my scientifically innovations, but Russia and Brasil proved it and showed xenia on tomatoes too.
Dear Cornhusk, what you might have wanted to tell us, is xenia and not only metaxenia on cucurbits.
I produces cherry tomatoes with deep ribbing in the first or parenteral generation and only used costoluto genovese pollinated by a round cherry tomato. Here the pollinator limited size and brought the more acidic flavor into the starchy tomato.
With cucurbits I did many dozens of times the demonstration of xenia only in 2014.

12/8/2014 10:46:06 AM

Eurasia

Why is Mr. Wallace the pope of giant pumpkins, when he also ignores 80 years old science about metaxenia in pumpkins from the US? Does highschool biology in the USA also ignore science from Aubrey D. Hibbard?
How deep do I have to climb into the hell of American ignorance to talk to you here?

12/8/2014 11:28:30 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19315260903584167#.VIXYyGdS6O4

12/8/2014 12:00:40 PM

Colorado

Many years ago I was asking Len Stellflug if the pollinator makes a difference. He had a example of pollinating a smaller squash species with ag or showking pollen and he got a personal best for that fruit. He suspected it was caused by the pollen but couldnt prove unless one runs a trial. So maybe pollen source is a factor for size of the fruit- but not appearance.

12/8/2014 12:19:52 PM

Central NY

Ludwig, I don't why .. But you bug me...

12/8/2014 12:20:26 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/plb.12266/abstract

12/8/2014 12:25:07 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

????????

12/8/2014 12:46:56 PM

Omaha, Ne.

Why must we go down this road again? To ignore won't work. He just infects the others.

12/8/2014 1:45:02 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Its all your fault Darren! lol

12/8/2014 1:54:07 PM

Eurasia

Why shame on Darren?
He asked a very interesting question...
I already waited for such a thread.
ThanX Darren.
... by the way:
Does Obama want to drop giant pumpkins out of the Boeing X-37?

12/8/2014 3:19:36 PM

Bethlehem CT

Yeah I can't quite put my finger on it but for some reason Ludwig bugs me too.

12/8/2014 3:58:37 PM

Bethlehem CT

Wixom grower that's hilarious.

12/8/2014 3:59:37 PM

Omaha, Ne.

I was wondering why there was no one asking many questions. I thought we just had a long growing year. But no amilio is back to his old tricks bashing growers and bashing on America and then he wonders why others don't like him . Then I wonder why he's allowed to break the rules of conduct

12/8/2014 4:14:18 PM

Honesdale, Pennsylvania

Pap for Pope.. that has a ring to it. Although hinting he is part of the Amish Maffia is interesting to think of as well..

12/8/2014 4:15:51 PM

Massachusetts

if you know the words to this song , you all will understand, go ash go! lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXn56jW8s5s

12/8/2014 4:20:12 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

come on amelio...more info on metaxenia please!!!!

12/8/2014 4:28:57 PM

President - GPC

lol Marley

12/8/2014 4:28:59 PM

formerly RGG

Ludwig bugs the crap out of me too. He thinks he knows everything and talks about "American fascism" and "Dick Wallace´s maffia". The man is nothing and he wants only to be controversial and belittle fellow humans. So this is Amelio with a new user name ? Well that explains everything. I hope he is banned again. As for myself,I will choose to ignore this ignorant trouble maker.

12/8/2014 5:23:59 PM

Bethlehem CT

Ludwig you may be a very intelligent person. But you are a nobody in the giant pumpkin world. Our goal is to grow the largest pumpkins period. For all practical purposes Ashton has the correct answer. You may be correct that the pollenator indeed has an effect on final fruit size. But to this date no study has been done confirming this with AG's. So lets not split hairs and hurl insults around. Prove to us that you are correct, show us that indeed the pollenator does make a significant difference in final fruit size.

12/8/2014 6:08:30 PM

Wixom MI.

Yes, i believe Obama does wont to drop gaint pumpkin out of a Boeing x-37 !!! Target, EURASIA RUSSIA. Lol...

12/8/2014 6:46:46 PM

Western NY

ignore button works great

12/8/2014 7:01:58 PM

Lodi, California

If we use logical reasoning, then the question that I ask you is how does your theory work? How do the haploid sperm cells released from the pollin genetically alter the DNA of every cell in the pumpkin? It simply is not possible, for if diploid cells combined with haploid cells, the new generation of cells would have one extra set of chromosomes. This process would continue every generation. If you cannot answer that question, then I do not know how I could believe what you are saying. There are not any shortcuts in genetics. If you combine two haploid sex cells, you will produce a diploid zygote, no more and no less. So how does this theory work?

12/8/2014 7:03:18 PM

Lodi, California

If you know what you are talking about, then you would be able to convey the idea in a simple way. Otherwise, you eather do not know what you are talking about, or you are spouting gibberish.

12/8/2014 7:06:45 PM

formerly RGG

Amen Ashton.

12/8/2014 8:13:37 PM

Central NY

Lol.. Ludwig just got owned

12/8/2014 8:26:33 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Keep it up Ashton. You are absolutely correct, there is no way for the pollen to influence the genetics of pumpkin (pericarp). Keep in mind that the endosperm is composed of triploid cells (extra set of chromosomes from mom), and the embryo is diploid (one from mom and one from dad).

As far as your Metaxenia paper goes Ludwig, there are many ways to interpret the data. The people doing the research don't always have the best explanation, which is why peer review becomes necessary.

Apples show strong self incompatibility, and so there must be a male variety in orchards to pollinate the fruit. We also know that certain hormones will induce parthenocarpy, or fruit formation from un-pollinated flowers. What matters is the biochemical cascade in the young fruit that says grow, or don't grow; and sometimes this signal is mixed which is what I think your paper outlines.

12/8/2014 9:06:30 PM

Muddy Waters

All I know is I can really see the traits of the 2009 Wallace In my 1947.5 .I crossed the 1495 Stelts with the 2009 Wallace in 2013.My soil wasn't right.So I only hit 1317 lbs,I knew the genetics would be there the next year to go big.So first time out of the gate a 1947.5 with the blossum end looking like Dad(2009).The stem like Mom.The shape leaned towards The Mother more then the father.Lets see what happens this year putting the 2009 Wallace back into it again.This time the 2009 was a normal blossom end not sucked in like the grandfather.You can definitely see the effects of the male pollinator on the 2nd year out.Im betting this one will be a winner.
Special note:
Please dont use the word sperm when talking pumpkins.It kind of ruins the appeal .LOL

12/8/2014 9:14:44 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

You all are gonna give yourself an ulcer if you keep worrying about this guy. Everyone here should know he tries by pushing buttons, the more you respond the more fuel you give him.

12/9/2014 7:53:48 AM

Piqua, Ohio

How do I go about joining the Wallace Mafia?

12/9/2014 11:39:00 AM

norway , maine

Its like an A-TEAM thing...they will find you lol

12/9/2014 12:27:27 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

anybody know who he is? Not 100% but i have a very,very good idea!

12/9/2014 12:54:46 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I don't know why you guys don't just block the offender. I have not seen one of his posts in years. Reading this thread... well, it's unreadable. Just move on.

We really need some good winter discussions like we used to have. Anybody got a good topic? Start a new thread.

12/9/2014 1:19:23 PM

Muddy Waters

Who read it? I didnt

12/9/2014 1:32:40 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I was a little harsh. There are some good points here. I guess I'm looking at two conversations, and only getting 1/2 of one of them. Anyway... carry on.

12/9/2014 3:41:41 PM

Lloydminster/AB

Cliff is right,that ignore button works well. I'm only getting the intelligent side of the conversation...

12/9/2014 9:28:42 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Ok Cliff, trying to get a conversation going on another board. It's Winter, lets get speculatin"

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=528124

12/9/2014 9:30:10 PM