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Pumpkintown, SC

My views have changed on this topic about once or twice per year. I am now leaning more towards the simplicity that selfing "may" increase the chances of reproducing some of the same characteristics that the seed had, but "only slightly". I believe there are so many genes involved with producing each individual characteristic, every subsequent pollination(cross, self or otherwise) will undoubtedly realign these genes leading to different characteristics with its offspring. But, on the otherhand, if you want to replicate a certain seed's characteristics, selfing would still be your best bet(though your odds are very poor). BF
WADAYATHINK?

11/20/2003 11:09:22 AM

Utah

"I believe there are so many genes involved with producing each individual characteristic, every subsequent pollination(cross, self or otherwise) will undoubtedly realign these genes leading to different characteristics with its offspring."
I agree with this 99%

at least with selfing at least you have some chance of bring something in line. if you do that though will you end up with what you wanted to get ? you will bring along a negative traits just the same as positive ones.
but with crossing you know you have almost no chance.

In the long run I think selfing and crossing backing are great things for AG growing.

11/20/2003 12:13:24 PM

Utah

... in other words... i agree with what you said.

11/20/2003 12:15:27 PM

high school biology recollection....say you like a certain phenotype, so you self that seed...well, guess what! the genotype was heterozygous! oh, oh! so you selfed a Tt...Tt x Tt...which gives you only a 25% chance of isolating that gene, a 25% chance of getting the opposite of what you want, and a 50% chance of getting what you want, but still having the possibility of getting what you don't want in the next generation (remember punnet squares??? fun stuff!). you gotta be picky and do some serious selfing if you want to isolate certain genes.

11/20/2003 12:41:07 PM

Deer Park WA

I believe that if you self a seed long enough, with an occasional sibbing, then after several years you will begin to have more and more characteristics of the parent in it's offspring, I have been working towards this with several pumpkins/squash.

11/20/2003 2:44:30 PM

That State Up North

What you are missing it you can't view this as a single plant situation. Selfing is only going to be usefull in a population where proper selection can be made. And from this it is a matter of statistics and selection and repetition of this process. Keep in mind, the population must be analyzed for that wich lends itself to increased weights, and that population may be defined rather broadly if accurate means of measuring these "traits of interest" exist.

Nic Welty

11/20/2003 4:10:51 PM

Deer Park WA

How many plants of the same seed would in your opinion Nick give you a representitive population that allows the grower to self the best ones? How many generations of this type of purification before you will see consistant size/shape/color in the offspring?

Gerry

11/20/2003 7:49:42 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

Don't mean to butt in here but if you read Nic's genetic
material in Don Langevin's new book about making a F2 cross you'll see that selfing a pumpkin is a good idea because you'll need a selfed seed if possible to cross back with your original cross.

Sorry I can't explain it as well as Nic but basically
if you want to make the F2 cross from what I undertand
you take pumpkin A. In this case I'll call it 582Hester.
You cross pumpkin A with a pumpkin that has traits you want to introduce into pumpkin A such as disease resistance like the 842Eaton which I've heard was the only healthy pumpkin in Al's patch this year,
Then you take the resulting pumpkin's seeds and cross them back with either the 582 itself or a 582 x self pumpkin.
This is the use of the selfed seeds that you all are referring to I think.

Kick me in the butt if I'm wrong Nic!
You should have gone into more detail in your article instead of wooing around with those co-eds...ha ha!
Michel

11/21/2003 2:40:48 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Nic, I agree with what you have written here(sorry, I haven't read the last book yet). However, this senario would only work(at least to the degree we are shooting for) in a perfect world where all of us could plant all the seeds from a specific pumpkin and could assure that each plant had exactly the same growing environment. My guess is, that has never happened...ever. I'm sure there are a few of us who have planted all the seeds from a specific pumpkin. But I doubt we could honestly say each plant had the identical growing environment(taking everything that can be taken, into account)...exact same soil, micro/macronutrients, insects, mildew, fungicides, insecticides, sunlight, water etc, all to the exact same degree. I don't believe any of us have ever done this. But, at the same time I would agree, in a rough sort of way, we are all part of one big test each year as we continue to grow seeds from a specific pumpkin. Like the 827, 567.5, 723 and so on. We have found, over years and years and through a vast number of growing situations certain seeds that have better genetics than others.


If we could conduct such an expansive yet exacting test, my guess is we would probably do it we should be able to

11/21/2003 9:54:09 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Sorry about that last line above. Generic, geriactric ramblings...

11/21/2003 9:55:53 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

What I am mainly interested in, is the "selfing" that we have all(well almost all) done over the years and will probably continue to do. I'm interested in evaluating what we have created and what we will be creating by making a simple selfs.
I am of the opinion, at least at this point in time {:^)> that the results of a "self" are not going to be much different than crossing two different pumpkins from two different genetic backgrounds. Not much likelyhood of reproducing a pumpkin like the mother. But I would also say, you would have a "slightly" greater likelyhood than if you made a random cross.
Here is a simple way of how my simple brain looks at it:
Say AGs have 1000 genetic possibilities. Say we have a 723. The 723 has 1000 genetic possibilities. We write every genetic possibility down on 1000 little pieces of paper and put them in a hat. If you self the seed you pull a piece of paper out of the hat of 1000 pieces of paper(probably more accurate would be to pull each piece out and evaluate the order - but I'm shooting for simple simon). Your results would be very, very random with little likelyhood of any calculatable replication.
Say you crossed the 723 with a 567.5. Well add to your hat another 1000 little pieces of paper that represent the 567.5's genetics. Now when you pull a piece out, your chances are even more random.
To me, if you self a quality seed, all you have really done is crossed it with another quality seed, itself. And, have not "greatly" increased the chances of duplicating anything. Each time you pull a piece of paper out of the hat, you never know what its going to be. BF

11/21/2003 10:29:57 AM

Syracuse, NY

okay, i am reading this a month after its first typing.
apparently i have a simple brain also! i note that there are no more posts after Snake oil's last one. i am speechless also, so to speak, lol, for i think his simple logic is, perfectly logical. 'pal2

12/26/2003 11:16:43 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

In an effort to bring all growers on this site into the topic(including all the newbies) I guess I over-simplified things for the rest of us who really wanted to talk seriously on the topic. Sorry, BF

12/30/2003 10:51:22 AM