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New Hampshire

I have a nagging question that will not go away. Posting it here might make it go away, confirm it or confuse me even more.
The question: Is the gene pool we are working with acurate? Take into consideration sloppy pollination practices and fake seeds and you have a epidemic of false Information. Once those genes get planted and distributed in seed packs the whole science experiment is tainted. Most of the talk about genetics seems to ignore this obvious truth. I have talk to growers who know of growers and their pollination practices. I have seen their seeds on auctions going from 50-100$. I am not trying to be a jerk but trying to be subjective and scientific about this whole subject. I know this is a hobby/sport and the cure of cancer or world peace is not at stake. I have accepted that the gene pool we work with is good enough to support this thing we call pumpkin growing and have confidence in the vast majority of you who love this sport.

11/21/2003 11:28:31 PM

Western Pa.

Bears,

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but with this brotherhood of pumpkin growers built on trust, we really don't have any other choice. I do believe that ever since trading over the information highway started, and as the numbers of growers continue to skyrocket,this problem is more prevalent and common than it used to be,than back when growers knew and dealt with each other personally. Unfortunately, with more and more growers joining the pool all the time, and with so many great seeds to choose from, it will become more and more difficult for a seed to become proven.

11/22/2003 1:32:11 AM

Deer Park WA

Good point bears,

That is why I have chosen my seed requests wisely, I only "trade" with the few I have met who have the same passion for pumpkins as I do. Now thats not to say I wouldn't give a hot seed to a truely dedicated grower, but I certianly have reconsidered the free gratas gimme sacks we all have recieved in the mail. I believe it takes a lifetime of dedication to produce a specimin of nature worthy of holding up to the world as truely special; others would eagerly take those years of study from you as a short cut to fame. I have such a long way to go before unraveling the secretes of the garden the last distraction I need is an inaccurate cross.

Gadberry

11/22/2003 2:05:57 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

We all spend hours looking at family trees during the winter but at the end of the day bits of paper are worthless,the pumpkin sitting in your patch is what counts.
Grow your own seeds,you know much more about your own plants than anyone elses.

Mark

11/22/2003 8:38:20 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

We all spend hours looking at family trees during the winter but at the end of the day bits of paper are worthless,the pumpkin sitting in your patch is what counts.
Grow your own seeds,you know much more about your own plants than anyone elses.

Mark

11/22/2003 8:39:32 AM

New Hampshire

To clarify my concern let me give you a made up Scenario. I know this didn't happen so I can use it. Lets say, Jim Kuhn slept in the day His 712 was pollinated back in 2000. He didn't get out to his patch untill 8am. Since Jim is a bee keeper and keeps bees next to his patch there is at least 50 bees already visited that blossom. It doesn't matter what he does after that that 712 is now a bonafide open pollinated. There is about 30 pumpkins on the aggc with it's Mother being the 712. There is three generations that has come after the 712 all with a idenity crisis. How many more generations after that will be affected? There are seeds in my possession that have grown Big pumpkins some of them over a 1000#. I am weary of growing them because of things I have heard about their pollination. I am not saying they are not good seeds and will never throw a big one but what you getting is a surprise package. I am not arguing the potenial of the seed but it,s true Idenity. I believe the seeds we all have in some degree is not what we think they are. Even if we grow our own seeds we do not have controll over past generations. How many generations are needed of faultless pollination to produce a true line?? Saying all that I said I will still plant and seek all the seeds most of us are looking for. The genetics are undoubtly there in many of these seed to make us proud in the patch. Thank you for listening to mr ramblings.

11/22/2003 10:31:40 AM

Indiana

Jim,
Plant a Beachy seed, if I claim I made a cross, I made a cross without any other pollen present. :-) I think it is important that everyone use some kind of cloth. I use really thin fabric such as remay or something else and a rubber band. The rubber band is placed around the fabric clear down below the flower, not below the pumpkin, but in the gap. If you tie your flowers off with just a string, and there are tears in the petals, or its not tied quite tight enough, a bug can get in......more bugs than bees can transport pollen.

Tom Beachy

11/22/2003 10:43:03 AM

Western Pa.

Tom,

I am very careful with my pollinations also. I think I will plant a Beachy. Then will you divulge the "secret" of the 501?

11/22/2003 10:52:48 AM

minnesota

Tom, I am planning on growing your 846 x 846 cross next year, and I am curious as to whether you have heard of any grower results from this year on that seed? Also how are your seeds from your seed offer this spring, listed on the AGGC, since they did not have weights associated with them?

11/22/2003 12:23:29 PM

New Hampshire

Tom,

11/22/2003 12:31:02 PM

New Hampshire

Tom,I trust you and your practices but can you be assured of the past 3-4 generations of all your crosses?

11/22/2003 12:33:59 PM

Ontario

I learned right from the beginning of my growing days that safe sex applies in the patch too...All those pantyhose I was made to wear when I worked in a hospital have come in handy...glad I didn't chuck them.
Like Kilr said its all based on trust..I try to grow seeds given to me by growers who would know the importance of covering up flowers and have never had a doubt in my mind that they didn't do it properly.

Small Patch
I grew one of Tom crosses (801x 876.5)and and it grew a 734lber ..it was my only pumpkin that was heavy to the charts...Its not on the AGGC yet but will be since Tom gave me the weight of the mother seed (237lbs)....Mike can't put them up unless he knows the weight...hmmm I seem to do better with seeds from smaller pumpkins...Maybe I'll grow Tom's 20 lber next year...that might be my ticket to a 1000lber...Sherry

11/22/2003 6:10:21 PM

Indiana

Sherry, that 237 performed above average in Welty's field test.

Jim, I know for certain that I have caught seeds that had foreign pollen in them. I can catch some of the bad ones based on physical appearance, caugt a few based on seed color. I trust the people I grow seeds from, but am to the point now that I am going to all Beachy seeds. I dont have time to go looking for seeds anymore. Still got 30 pumpkins to get seeds out of.

Tom

11/22/2003 6:30:45 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

We produced only one pumpkin this year with of known cross (Our 707 Toftness x self). Because I found small flying insects either in the male donor of the covered female, all others are listed as OPEN. Just knowing that 99.5% of the pollin came from the desired donor doesn't mean that the desired goal was met. And I grossly underestimated how much time goes into covering the flowers & getting prepared to make the cross. Based on my 2003 failures, I am devising a "pollination field kit" for myself where the selected males will be in portable box (cooler) until the very last second. The bees took no less than 10 seconds to find & land on my donor males as I worked at the crack of dawn.

Perhaps it would be better to work in the dark under lights?

Is it OK to rip the desired female flower open before the sun comes up?

Steve

11/23/2003 7:41:01 AM

New Hampshire

Another reason for doubting the gene pool is flakey seed packet labelers. See my post "582" under general discussion.

11/23/2003 2:09:16 PM

Syracuse, NY

funny about these posts don't seem to go past the end of
November, that i've seen yet anyway.
Anyway, if i does anyone any good to know, i am also a fanatic about sealing, clamping, zip-tying and now mesh-cloth bagging my flowers, the females in the patch and the males cut the night before and allowed to bloom in the garage in separate cups filled with water, under plastic storage bins with heavy things on top and carpet underneath.
ain't NO bugs gettin' in. and if they did? ABORT!!!
and i have learned the hard weigh also to keep the flowers in a cardboard box with the flaps closed on the weigh out to the lucky pollinee'! when you get a Gerry seed, the cross is guaranteed---------whoops! didn't know it was gonna rhyme! lol.......also--see Mike Frantz's diary.......
an awesome pollination helper he has shown us...little mesh bag with a drawstring. hope he doesn't mind my sayin' so...

12/26/2003 11:33:26 AM