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Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

I'm curious what peoples thoughts are on using multiple pollinators. I notice that most people don't do it. Any good reasons for it?

11/24/2003 7:17:22 PM

Stouffville

well i say grow multiple or go home...once you grow em you'll never go back to pure crosses

11/24/2003 7:35:41 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

The BEST reason for multiple pollinators is if there is a shortage of males in your patch when the female is ready.


How secure would you feel if you only had one available male to pollenate with?

11/24/2003 8:47:25 PM

Deer Park WA

Most folks go to extremes to insure a pure pollination for the simple reason that they are after pure breds not mutts! You never know what to expect with an open or multiple pollinated fruit. It really dosen't matter if you just want to get the "deed" done, and enjoy the current season.

11/24/2003 9:00:16 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Multiple pollinators as in males donors from different plants of different genetic stock?...That sounds like an open pollination. The resulting seeds will be of unkown parentage.

Or multiple male donor flowers from the same (yet different parent) donor plant? That's fairly common crossing practice isn't it?

Am I missing something here?

11/24/2003 9:34:15 PM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

Tremor,

So, if I take take male blossoms from both my 846 Calai and my 723 Bobier and hand pollinate my 582 Hester with both flowers, this is considered open pollination?

11/24/2003 10:14:25 PM

I can see the good and bad of each side, I think it's the grower's choice as long as they label it correctly so other growers know what it is, or what the possibilities of it being are.

11/24/2003 10:23:01 PM

Itzetown City

As in real life, there is only one pollen for one ovule. So you cannot cross all three at once. x% of the seeds are 582x846 and x% are 582x723. But you didnt know what cross is in one seed. Dont call em "open", it isnt open, it is 582 x 846+723.

11/25/2003 4:38:50 AM

Tipp City, Ohio

I think it should still be considered open. If I would grow one seed from this pumpkin, I have to be "open" minded that I will get one or the other.

11/25/2003 10:09:11 AM

Stouffville

yes but a multiple is definitely a qualified 'open'. Open can mean lots of things. what if one guy grew a 582 in the middle of a field of buttercups and let a fruit open pollinate on that one. Then you end up perhaps with 582xself/buttercup, which definitely could have interesting results. However for a competitive-minded grower the 582x846/723 definitely looks more appealing on paper, and who's to say which cross is better anyway. But since there are pure crosses out there to grow, don't fret too much about this. And I'd say, if you have a perfect female blooming but not enough males, don't hesistate to multiple pollinate. On a slightly different but related note, I've obtained complete pollination using two males on a female. has anyone done it with just one?

11/25/2003 10:39:22 AM

Indiana

I polinated my females with one male flower and had good results.
Steve

11/25/2003 10:42:45 AM

Stouffville

a more interesting cross would be 582 x turks turban

11/25/2003 10:43:48 AM

Itzetown City

Whats if you pollinated 4 females with 1 male? U**a cross! <bg>
Werner <up up and away>

11/25/2003 11:16:01 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Jammer...buttercups crossing with AG's? Now I know you think too much :0)

11/25/2003 3:36:39 PM

Brillion Wisconsin

The way I always thought it was is that the female flower has multiple ovaries. If left for open pollenation you could have muptiple males for each individual ovary.


Lets say a female flower has 5 segments. Each segment received pollen from a male flower from 5 differant plants. That pumpkins seeds would then have the genetics of all 5 male pollenators corresponding to individual ovary section.

I think harevesting seeds by individual section will become an interesting practice for those of us that are pumpkin genetic crazy.

11/25/2003 4:22:39 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Some of the resulting seeds will be pollinated by one male. Some will be pollinated by the other(s). There will be no way of knowing which is which until the seeds are planted & even then, not all progeny will reveal distinct enough traits to be sure of the parentage.

I did this at my son's school. The seeds are now labeled as "OPEN" pollination. To label otherwise I fear would be misleading regardless of how the pumpkins grew. Though listing the males donors would be OK I suppose.....interesting.

Steve

11/25/2003 6:30:04 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

Green Rye,
The chromosomes of the pumpkin is split in two in the pumpkin flower. To keep it simple, the egg is one half and the pollen the other half.
There is no way to my knowlege that more than one pollen can combine with a single egg. There is a way to create a double pair however using chemicals but this usually kills most of the plants and you need a good microscope to be able to see if you were successful by viewing the underside of the leaves to see if there is an abnormally high number of
chloroplasts surrounding the stomates which are the openings under the leaf surface where gasses are exchanged.

I'm only starting to study this material now but I hope to someday understand it all and be able to contribute to breeding larger pumpkins more quickly and take a lot of the guess work out of the picture.
Best regards,
michel

11/26/2003 3:18:41 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

If I'm wrong please slam me anyone...Nic???
Michel

11/26/2003 3:20:59 AM

That State Up North

You did good Michel

Also of note for this discussion, the "lobes" of the pumpkin will receive pollen from a varying range of source that is not directly limited to the coresponding surface to which the pollen is applied. Thus, lobe separation becomes a futile effort.
The end result of a mixed pollination is not open pollination, there remains some information as to the pollen that was applied, and this information can lend some use in predicting character of the offspring. The major problem here is that the consistency of the offspring is negativly affected. For the most serious competition, consistency is the most prized quality a seed can exhibit, and for that reason mixed pollination is not good. You must consider however, that mixed pollination may lead to a range of results that you are willing to explore, and plant the seed out of interest for any of the possible results. Say for example I grew an 801.5 Stelts, and decided to use males from two different plants, a 974 Mettler and an 876.5 Lloyd. Both may be good choices, or maybe they aren't; the end result is that someone may be interested to see the result of either of those crosses so they plant the seed anyway, and enjoy what it grows the next season. The problematic result is that we will never know what the grandfather of their seed was for future genetic planning. Mixed pollination produces inconsistent seeds, and eliminates the most useful analysis of a seedline's genetic future, but does give a limited amount of knowledge beyond open pollination.

Nic Welty

11/26/2003 6:25:30 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

For good info. regaurding pollination check out these past posts: "Pollination & Fert. 101" and "Help! Re: pollination"

I was definately incorrect in posting a female pumpkin flower has the ability to receive more than 1 set of genetic code at fertilization. Thanks for clearing this up. Dean o

11/26/2003 8:47:09 AM

Covington, WA

Yeah, what Michel and Nic said. I also read an article somewhere about pollen competition for fertilization when using multiple pollinators. I'll have to try and locate that one again. The gist of it was that it can decrease your chances of a successful pollination. There is more than adequate numbers of pollen grains in one male flower to pollinated any female flower you have. One of the best seed counts I had from my pumpkins this year came from a fruit that was pollinated with a single male as that was all I had in the patch at the time. If there is any way I can avoid using multiple pollinators I will. I'm starting to think that multiple males, even from the same plant may not be best either, but the jury is still out on that one. We have to remember that the goal for us is to set a fruit and grow a pumpkin. Getting a good seed from it is secondary as there are always good seeds available. Successful fruit set can be achieved with a single male pollinator and if multiple males from different plants can deter that we should avoid that practice.

11/26/2003 11:42:05 AM

Cincinnati,OH

I'm confused. Would all of the male flowers from the same plant contain identical genetic material?

11/26/2003 7:31:17 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

The key word is _SIMILAR_ genetic material.

- because of the "independent assortment of the genes" & due to chromsomal separation & recombination.

11/26/2003 8:56:31 PM

Syracuse, NY

"Mixed pollination produces inconsistent seeds, and eliminates the most useful analysis of a seedline's genetic future, but does give a limited amount of knowledge beyond open pollination."
"Successful fruit set can be achieved with a single male pollinator and if multiple males from different plants can deter that we should avoid that practice."
i'm repeating these two statements because i caught myself
exclaiming "YEAH!" as i read them...i'll be all right......

12/26/2003 12:06:21 PM