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Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

I see that some people grow crosses just for the genetics. Can any of you geneticists out there tell me if growing them large alters the seeds' DNA any? If I have a 846x723 that is 1100lbs and a 846x723 that is 200lbs, recognizing that all seeds are different, is the relative probability that I will get a big one the same from both pumpkins? Also, does fertilization affect the genetics as well?

Thanks!

Matt

1/5/2004 6:56:50 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Matt,
Some may disagree but I don't think normal environmental factors affect genetics a bit. All things being equal, a 200# has the same genetics as an 1100#.

1/5/2004 9:14:38 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

My vote goes to the "parent weight shouldn't matter in general" consensus.

Lower weight genetic crosses seem to be a fairly new concept & haven't yet seen wide spread planting. So we're just making educated guesses.

Plus heavy hitters don't need these seeds since good genetic stock is easily obtained by them. If they don't grow these seeds, we may never know.

But.....We do lose the opportunity to view the full results of an intense growth cycle that could point out potentially disasterous genetic issues like hidden dill rings or other splitting & finished weight limiting factors we might otherwise wish to avoid.

Some will understandably argue that the sport hasn't evolved to where it is today by planting seeds of the smallest progeny.

Catch22

1/5/2004 9:56:59 PM

Covington, WA

This is a great question, and I wish I had the answer. All I can offer are my own undereducated observations and opinions. I would disagree with southern on this one though. I believe normal environmental factors can affect genetics. To put it the simplest way I can think of, if a plant can't tolerate heat, and aborts all it's fruit during a hot spell in late July, there will be no progeny. Evolution is not really the slow process it was once thought to be. Plants and animals evolve in different ways constantly. Mutations are a common occurrance, those that benefit the organism survive, those that cause harm, don't survive. EG fasciation, or flat vine as it's commonly known. By being selective in our choices for breeding, AG's are continuing to evolve into larger fruit. Most of this has been done by crossing the largest with the largest. Only recently have growers given consideration the importance of selfing, sibbing, and back crossing in order to reenforce certain traits. Most of us only have a sketchy understanding of how this works anyway and most growers made crosses based on their intuition and what they had available. Howard Dill did the bulk of the work when he developed the variety. It really all goes back to what he did. It continues to evolve because so many people continue to make their crosses in a similar fashion.

1/6/2004 12:50:12 AM

Covington, WA

Eight years ago it would have been very rare to find a grower who was making crosses simply to combine certain lines. This hobby was about growing the biggest one you could this year, and not what you could get from the seeds in your fruit next season. Fertilization is all about the genes, it's done to produce a fruit that will carry the seeds of the next generation.
Given a choice between a seed from an 1100 lb. fruit and a 200 lb. fruit with the same parents, I'd take the one from the 1100 every time. Not to say the 200 lb fruit couldn't pop a bigun, but with 1100 lb fruit you know it had the stuff to get to that size and has the potential to pass it on. With the 200 lb. fruit, there is no way of knowing what it could have done under different circumstances, maybe it was destined to split at 400 but never made it to that point? Just something to chew on until the ground thaws.

1/6/2004 12:50:23 AM

Sydney, Australia

I'm growing 100 plants at a test patch this year and can see no difference in plants that come from 75 pound seed or 1097.8 pound seed or anywhere in bewteen. Sure they haven't made mature fruit yet, but vigour is very similar. All have good AG genetics. Big fruit have already been grown from tiny pumpkins, for example a 572 pounder from a 40 pound pumpkin seed.

1/6/2004 6:26:26 AM

Indiana

How can enviromental factors effect genetics? I could understand mutations possibly from chemicals, but not normal factors. Once the fruit is pollinated the seeds contain the genetic codes from the parents. A plant that produces a fruit that splits does not mean the seeds inside of the split fruit will produce fruits that split. (Say that fast) The only way to determine what is gonna happen with a seed is to grow it. Tom B and Nick could shed alot more light on this.
Steve

1/6/2004 7:13:11 AM

Deer Park, WI

The only way environmental factors can affect the base-pair arrangement of DNA is thru mutation, and for our purposes I dont think this is very common, unless induced. Based on that statement, enviroment does not affect genetics. However, the environment does affect the expression of specific traits. You already see this: light signals flower/fruit development, soil moisture affects fruit maturation, pruning shifts sink/source relations.

Really it comes down to your definition of genetics. I guess for most people, this means the genetic code. The only way we as growers can affect the genetic code of our species is thru induced mutation (via mutagens) and selective pollinations.

1/6/2004 8:51:32 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

I would like to say a few words on this subject:
We all know that not every seed on a pumpkin get the same genetics and so, not all the 723 x 846 crosses show the same results, as we can see in the AGGC. Also, two particular crosses of two particular plants of the same patch can give you different results, for instance the 1230 and 1016 Daletas or the 842 and 1236 Eaton.
What is affecting one cross? Definitely, the moment. Some moments are better, you can't choose the day the flower is going to open, but you can choose the moment of the day you make pollination, that is something at least.
Mutations are very common for sure, but they don't use to affect in many cases, though they do in some others. Heat, stress from deseases, draught or other troubles can increase the mutation ratio.
And, of course, there is a very important think involved: luck.
finnally, Matt, you can find this very year huge pumpkins from small ones (413 Pukos produced the 1064 Martin) and from big ones (1260 Weir gave the 1370 Rose) as well.

Carlos

1/6/2004 1:56:25 PM

Covington, WA

Joze I have to disagree with your statement regarding mutations. They are far more common than most people realize. Ever had an apparantly sound seed fail to germinate under the identical conditions of all the other seeds that you germinated? One of the reasons for this is a fatal mutation. Look at dogs for example. They have all come from the same genetic line, that of wolves. How long do you think dogs have been domesticated? How much variety is there among breeds of dogs? The reason there are so many breeds is because of mutations and selective breeding. And any of these canines can breed with other canines successfully. We don't need to do anything to induce mutations, they occurr abundantly and frequently. Some mutations are extremely common and repeated many times. Many are fatal. Environmental stresses can lead to mutations, UV, heat, metals, toxins, the list goes on. I may have stated that my observations are undereducated, but that's my own yardstick. I have done some reading on the subject. I believe that if you continued to select small pumpkins, and grow small pumpkins, if done over enough generations, you would only produce small pumpkins. How many people have grown a respectable AG from bulk seed? I suspect commercial growers have probably been using the same seed stock for 15-20 years growing field AG's for the seed market. A number of commercial seed producers sell AG seeds, purchased from these bulk growers. I challenge anyone to grow a 1000 lb. fruit from an Ed Hume or Vesey's seed. I don't believe it can be done because I don't think the plants that produce these seeds have been grown for size in a number of generations. I expect these seeds have little relation to the seed most of us desire for planting today. If some knows otherwise I'd be happy to hear of it. Just something else to think about while the snow is flying.

1/6/2004 6:38:42 PM

Indiana

I think tom B is gonna grow a big one from his 29#er. or whatever it weighed. I agree if you grow small pumpkins or anything else for that matter for generations, you are going to end up with only small pumpkins or whatever you are growing. But the question that was asked was about genetic crosses from big pumpkin producing seed so i have to say you have just as good of a chance of growing a giant from some of the same crosses that have grown giants in the past.I still would like a "proven seed" over the smaller cross but that is not always possible.
Steve

1/6/2004 7:05:54 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

The question of the thread was "does size affect the genetics"? It's not whether small pumpkins make small pumpkins or big make big, it's whether the genetics would be the same from small to large if from the same stock...and the answer is yes.
Noone's trying to dispute an argument that bulk seed, Vessey's, etc couldn't grow a 1000+...of course they probably won't..because they have inferior genetics. But a 50# pumpkin from those same bulk seed would have the same genetics as a 150# pumpkin from the same lot.
You're gettin' off course Chris.

1/6/2004 7:34:28 PM

Covington, WA

I may be off course, but don't try to stop me, I'm on a roll. ;o) 50 or 150 from a bulk seed isn't as much of a difference as 200 or 1100 from a 846X723 as stated in the original question. My point is, both started from the same place less than 35 years ago,Howard Dill's patch. The choices that have been made by the growers over those years has made the difference between them. The goals of the growers's those who want to grow them big, and those who want a salable product (seeds), have made the difference between between what we plant and what the casual gardener who orders seeds from a catalogue or picks them up at a home center can grow. As for making crosses simply for the genetics, is it possible to keep crossing the 846 and 723 and getting good results in the next generation? Sure, but every seed is different, and all 846 seeds and 723 seeds are not created equal. Therefore if I have a choice of planting a seed from an 1100 or a 200 with the same parent fruit, I will take the 1100 every time. As I stated earlier, you will never know the potential the 200 had because it wasn't grown for size. Ever had a pumpkin just stop growing for no apparant reason even though other fruit in the same environment kept going strong? Keep at this long enough and you will. Why did this happen? My belief is that is all that some are capable of. And if they have some factor in their genetics that limits them, then I would prefer not to use the seed from that fruit. I'm not saying you can't do well with seed that is grown only for genetics, just that if you have a choice, why would you use the seed from the smaller fruit?
Where are those bright young college kids on this topic? I'd like to here some input from them. Cabin fever is setting in fast here.

1/6/2004 11:07:48 PM

Indiana

the reason the store bought seeds are not as good is that the seeds are left open pollinated, and have other lesser c. maxima mixed into the lineage. Cinderella, hubbard, prizewinner, big max, big moon. All of the sudden their field stock is maxed out at 4-500 lbs genetic potential instead of 1000+ once any of the other c. maxima varieties are mixed in. That is the reason the store bought seeds are a poor example.

Tom Beachy

1/6/2004 11:36:10 PM

Covington, WA

I said the "bright" young college kids, Tom.

1/6/2004 11:45:35 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Tiller if your statement is true why are we not all planting last years record seed like the 1458 or the 1385. Instead we are looking for the parent seed. We should all plant a new unproven seed every year to keep a good mix of genes.

1/7/2004 12:33:06 AM

mcminnville oregon

my pick will be either green or orange , rather than ###s

1/7/2004 2:21:37 AM

Deer Park, WI

Chris- I understand your argument for mutations, yes they do happen quite frequently. But notice I made the statement "for our purposes". By this I mean mutations that are recognizable as such and significantly impact the fruit/plant in a negative way. This does not happen all that often. Sure, a finely direct UV wave will knock out a base pair here and there on a regular basis, but the chances of it manifesting to the point where a grower can say "Damn you sun, knock it off!" is really quite small. I think the role of mutations in AG's is grossly overblown. Often times this concept is confused with "selection", the art of choosing the best seed year after year. Some will argue that mutation makes the pumpkin genome dynamic, and is responsible for rearranging the DNA, thus offering the great increases in weight over the last 35 years. I say BAH! When pollen meets egg, you get a rearrangement of DNA that is completely random. You grow a bunch of seeds from this random rearrangement and choose the strong and mighty. That has nothing to do with mutation.

1/7/2004 9:19:10 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I'll play devil's advocate with respect to the 1458 if I may. The 582 has 13 progeny listed at AGGC. Of those, only 3 broke 1000 lbs. The overall average weight for the 13 is 844lbs.

If the 582 does possess "super genetics" & Bruce Whittier had never planted a 582, would we know? The only other "same cross" has not yet been planted.

So what about the 582 is special? Only the fact that Bruce planted it.

The influence of environment on genetics is very minimal on a per generation basis. The influence of genetics on growth is limited by itself & the environment. Genetic potential is only visible when environmental limitations are removed. You can quote me on this if you'd like.

So if they don't get planted, this conversation & all low weight genetic crossing attempts are meaningless.

IMHO

Steve

1/7/2004 9:57:25 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Matt - I wanted to share my thoughts on your questions.

"If I have a 846x723 that is 1100lbs and a 846x723 that is 200lbs, recognizing that all seeds are different, is the relative probability that I will get a big one the same from both pumpkins?"
Yes - this is a very good cross. A good case in point the 1038 Emmons and the 419 Pukos same genetics, both have grown large fruit. Note the 419 hasn't been widely grown BUT will probably see a better showing in '04. This same cross has done well for others as well. Check the 842 Eaton & 845 Nesbitt for example.

Fertilization affects genetics greatly. The chromosomes are split in half and then are recombined during fertilization (pollenation). You can imagine that there is a great deal of variation that can occur during this process.

1/7/2004 12:50:33 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Hey Steve, you can be sure the 582 is special, very special. Although Bruce could be one of the top growers in the World, that seed is one of the top seeds in the World as well.
The small offspring of a particular seed count much less, in my opinion, than the big one. Those not so big pumpkins could have grown less than others for a number of environmental factors, growth skill of the grower, soil quality and preparation, local weather, deseases... many and many. But if a seed has grown 3 pumpkins over 1100 pounds, it has shown that what is capable of. And you know that that particular monster could have continue growing if left on the plant.

Carlos

1/7/2004 2:13:12 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I agree with Carlos that the 582 is special. I should have been more clear. Had Bruce not grown it, the 582 would be considered an average performer if taken at face value. Other fine growers tried the 582 with less than incredible results though.

I feel there are a LOT of seeds out there that if grown by a hitter, would soon be equally sought after. Including these "low weight" genetic seeds. The challenge seems to lie in figuring out a way to convince the best growers to plant them.

1/7/2004 5:55:03 PM

Morris, Connecticut

I think that Bruce could grow just about any seed and get it to produce a monster. He's grown the biggest off of the 712 Kuhn, 961 Daletas, and 582 Hester among other's.

Personally, I'd lean towards a seed that produced a 900 or 1,000lber in a newbies patch over a seed that produced a 1,000lber in a heavy hitters patch each and everytime.

I'm not knocking the 582 or other proven seeds, just look who's grown them. I grew a 845 Bobier in my patch this year and it was my worst plant...

1/8/2004 12:04:52 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

I agree with you Adam.
As you know, my best plant last year was the 600.5 Gregory. Probabbly I was the only grower in the World who planted it, why did I, if it only had produced one 800+, and for the same grower?
Because that 829.5 was the personal best of a warm country grower (Southern California) and it grew close to a very famous seeds, like 845 Bobier, 1230 Daletas, 712 Kuhn or 996.5 Emmons and had overpassed them all. I could have taken the wrong decission, but I was lucky and that seed proved to be a fantastic fast fruit grower.
Last year I looked for seed that grew personal best for some growers and if possible in warm areas. That last point I believe is very important. For instance one seed I sowed last year was the 695 Handy, which had produced Steve Handy's personal best, but I had to eliminate it because it didn't resist my hot weather.
I true believe that if my 582 plant from last year wasn't show that ribbon-double vine terrible tendence, it could be a great plant here, as it was resisting the heat without problem.

Carlos

1/8/2004 10:52:36 AM