Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Eugene, OR

Hi all.

I've been hearing the term hybrid vigor more and more often these days in reference to certain seeds and I was hoping someone could help me get a better grasp on its meaning. What constitutes hybrid vigor? Does hybrid vigor mean larger pumpkins?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Brian

1/15/2004 1:01:04 PM

gordon

Utah

Brian-
my suggestion to you would be to type "hybrid vigor" into this sites "site search" and hit enter... you'll find two excellent articals on the subject written by Joe and lots of threads on the subject....there would be a little wading through extra stuff but for the most part it's on topic.
gordon

1/15/2004 1:13:14 PM

Eugene, OR

Thanks Gordon. I've read the articles, but was still a little lost. I understand that hybrid vigor is simply crossing two genetic lines of significantly differing backgrounds in hopes of increasing growth and producing larger pumpkins. The part that gets me is that can't hybrid vigor also be a negative by decreasing pumpkin size? And are the genetic backgrounds different enough to even produce hybrid vigor since they all have links back to the original Dill strain.(At least I think they do, LOL)

Brian

1/15/2004 1:30:19 PM

gordon

Utah

... well the reason i asked you to read it ... is because i'm lazy! lol !

i guess one could argue that there are different species mixed into the AG world genes ... that as you state the lines are different enough to create hybrid vigor... I think there cold be some truth to that statement... but it is all debatable and no one knows for sure. and it is hard to show one way or the other...

frankly i don't believe in hybrid vigor in AG's. the way i understand hybrid vigor ... is that two separate species (with in the same genius and are able to be crossed) are crossed and this increases "vigor" or output or yeild. i think AG's are all the same species thus hybrid vigor doesn't exsist. I think people talk about a certain plant that has vigor ...because it is grows fast or has big leaves or something along those lines... and i think some are attributing this to hybrid vigor ... but these, in my opinion, are just characteristics of that plant... characteristics that come from genes... not hybrid vigor... growers are hoping passing on these characteristics, which is a great idea... but i don't think it is hybrid vigor.

so did that help any? or just muddy the water even more ... lol!

1/15/2004 3:26:26 PM

gordon

Utah

"i'm lazy" ... i meant that it's good for people to do your own home homework AND i wouldn't have had to type so much. :)

1/15/2004 3:42:17 PM

Sask, Canada

I have to throw in my two cents on this issue as more growers are coming into this sport and I see crosses from all over the playing field. I will also state that in my opinion 90% of growers today have no clue how to acheive or cross for the results they want.

Hybrid vigor does indeed come from the same species or variety by select breeding. To grow one or two plants of a strain and claim because it grows a 1000lb'er it is the next hot seed is false.

I could write all day on the subject and talk till I'm blue in the face but it will do no good. Instead I will choose to prove my facts based on results, so keep your eyes out for past and future Pearce seeds.

If you want an insite into hybrid vigor or select breeding look at the 935 Lloyd and it's offspring or the 801.5 Stelts and it's offspring now look at the results of these two crossed together, there you have hybrid vigor from the same variety.

How many seeds out there have similar parentage as these two not many...

Look at it like this....

cont'd

1/15/2004 4:06:22 PM

huffspumpkins

canal winchester ohio

How many of the "hot seeds" do you think was created by chance & not by a long drawn out search for possible crosses ?
personally I think quite a few.

1/15/2004 4:26:48 PM

Sask, Canada

pumpkin (A) grows heavy, pumpkin (b) grows heavy so they are crossed and produce pumpkin (c) everyone thinks this is great so they jump on pumpkin (a),(b) and even (c) and cross it to just about anything they can sprout. Big WRONG...

Get pumpkin (a) self or sib this get pumpkin (b) and do the same. maybe do this for three generations then cross them to get (c)

Or even better get (a) cross it with (b) out of this take it's offspring say (d) and (e) sib these too themselves then cross that offspring together so you would have (a)+(b)=(d)and(e) then (d)x(d)=(f)and (e)x(e)=(g) then say (f)x(g)=(h). Now (H) has been line crossed if you will and back to only two parents without going out side the family line. Now you want hybrid vigor so find another seed maybe (L) that has been line crossed the same way, cross these together for hybrid vigor.

You end up with four true parents from the start two on the mothers and two on the fathers which are each different. example the 727 Pearce '03

However today we see (a)x(b)=(c) then (c)x(L)=(F) (f)x(a)=(q) and on and on. when it it is traiced back to the two who started the strain there could be 15 different family's in the lineage and there should be only one crossed with two for pure lines and hybrid vigor.

Take it with a grain of salt if you want or you could look at how bigger and better variety's, strains, and family lines are bred within all types of vegetables and animals.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/15/2004 4:28:00 PM

huffspumpkins

canal winchester ohio

One step further on my last post. How many great seeds are just sitting out there because they don't have a certain name after them ?
again I think quite a few.

1/15/2004 4:31:50 PM

Eugene, OR

Ernie, I'm in no way questioning the theory since I just don't have the experience....just looking for more information on it to help me and probably anyone else reading this who doesn't know understand the process.

By sibbing a seed repeatedly, you're attempting to purify the lineage and reduce it to only two parents? Do this with two seeds of differing lineage for a few years, then cross them together to obtain hybrid vigor. BUT, does following this breeding process in attempt to establish hybrid vigor always yield favorable results? I guess what I'm asking is if a seed could qualify as displaying hybrid vigor in their lineage without actually displaying the positive result we're after....increased weight. Can hybrid vigor be a bad thing?

Brian

1/15/2004 6:31:02 PM

Sask, Canada

Ok, Brian I'll go into some detail, first though this is not just a theory it is a proven fact. I'll give you better examples, hopefully in the future we will see more growers growing and breeding strains instead of just a seed.

I will mention it is alot more difficult to select breed Ags than most other vegetables as the space required is so large.

Tell you what I'll end this post here and take some time and right an article that might help clear up some questions, give me a couple hours and I'll come back and post were the article is.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/16/2004 8:12:59 AM

Sask, Canada

Here is the article, and please understand my knowledge based on breeding while vast as I have not only bred and created two tomato variety's for size and as well read every thing I could get my hands on is a scaled version and I am not to good at getting info from my brain to paper to explain the concept.

But it is simple you breed a strain by line-breeding to get rid of the bad traits (mutants, etc.) and keep the good traits that you bred for (green, orange, large, heavy or what ever the outcome you wanted) then the line becomes pure or true to type and every seed you plant will display these characters now if you take a similar strain (bred true) for the same traits and cross these together you should get the big bang theory or hybrid vigor.

Who knows maybe some day we will be growing giant purple pumpkins.

Here is the link to my article.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/giantveggies/breeding.html

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/16/2004 12:26:51 PM

Eugene, OR

Ernie,

Thank you very much for your time. I'm sure there are others who are very interested in this as well. The genetics aspect of AG growing is what has been giving me a hard time, so I've been trying to learn what I can so I don't end up just randomly crossing seeds in hopes of getting lucky.

I'll read your article this evening when I have a little more time to digest it. The info is much appreciated!

Congrats on your tomatoes!!

Brian

1/16/2004 3:13:46 PM

hey you

Greencastle, PA

negitive traits can be amplified by hybrid vigor as well asd positive, but it's the ones with the positive traits that will continue to be bred, the ones with the negitive traits won't be grown.
Tom

1/16/2004 5:27:07 PM

SmallTownUSA

Alex, IN

Would the 1024 Mombert(845 Bobier X 898 Knuass) be considered a hybrid vigor cross?

Mikkal

1/16/2004 5:31:39 PM

Sask, Canada

Mikkal:

No,

If you want to see what I would refer to as a hybrid vigor cross go to AGGC and do a create family tree in the seed box put 899.5 Werner 2003* and in the cross box put 738.0 Stellpflug 1997*

These are two seeds both from line-breeding to create a pure line now when these two are crossed they should produce nice green squash with alot of spunk or hybrid vigor.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/16/2004 5:49:28 PM

Sask, Canada

Tom:

Your right on the button with that one...

But I've always wondered like with my tomato's if I select only the mutants and less favorable traits and weed out the good ones and continue to cross these less desirable's what would I get. I could hypothesize that either (a) I would end up with some really screwed up tomato or (b) which is most likely the case, NOTHING as nature has a way of weeding out the weak and these would probably end up not being able to reproduce because they are so screwed up....

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/16/2004 6:02:46 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Read 'The Next Great Cross' and 'Hybrid Vigor' from this link...

http://www.hort.net/lists//pumpkins/dec03/

there are like 50 posts on this subject and very informative. Also... first read the stiff from these two links....

1/16/2004 8:58:48 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

opps... this was meant to go on the last message...LOL

http://www.atlanticgiantgenetics.com/AGPrimer.asp

http://www.atlanticgiantgenetics.com/AGPrimer2.asp

1/16/2004 9:00:31 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

opps... this was meant to go on the last message...LOL

http://www.atlanticgiantgenetics.com/AGPrimer.asp

http://www.atlanticgiantgenetics.com/AGPrimer2.asp

1/16/2004 9:00:35 PM

Eugene, OR

Ernie,

Very informative write up, thank you! It definitely gives me the basic info I need to make semi-educated guesses when trying to figure out what to cross.

The one part I would like to comment on is when you say you need to grow 100 seeds, pick the seeds from the pumpkins that display the trait you're after, then repeat this process over and over again.

I have no experience with genetics (obviously) but I can say without a doubt that there's no need to grow that many seeds. You can get an accurate representation of all the seeds without actually planting every last one. Statistics shows us this is true. I'll post the blurb I wrote that shows why this is so.

1/16/2004 10:11:58 PM

Eugene, OR

When breeding for specific traits, there is no need to grow every last seed. We can get an accurate representation of the all the seeds as a whole by planting only a small percentage of them. For example, a certain pumpkin produces 300 seeds. We can plant as few as 15 of the 300 and still get a 95% accurate representation of all 300 seeds. Obviously, we're making a couple of assumptions when saying you only need to grow 15 seeds to obtain a 95 percent confidence interval. The first and biggest assumption is the percentage of seeds in the pumpkin that possess the traits you're after. Without acutally growing every last seed, it's a shot in the dark. Half of the seeds in the pumpkin could contain the traits you're after or as little as 10 percent of the seeds could contain the trait you want. This assumption greatly effects the number of seeds you need to plant in order to get an accurate representation of all the seeds. The second assumption is that the data is accurately represented by a normal curve. I ran the numbers and used a probability of 0.3 or 30%....meaning that we're assuming 30 percent of the seeds in the pumpkin will exhibit the trait you're after. I'd say that's a pretty fair and conservative estimate. The higher the probability, the fewer seeds you have to grow.

To figure out the number of seeds you need to plant in order to establish a 95 percent confidence interval, you have to first find the standard deviation. Sorry if no one wants to see how the numbers work out, but I think it's
important.

cont

1/16/2004 10:23:03 PM

Eugene, OR

std. dev. = [np(1-p)]^1/2 where n = the total number of seeds and p is the percentage of seeds that posses the trait you want.

= [(300)(0.3)(1-0.3)]^1/2 = 7.94

Using the std. dev. of all the seeds we just found you can calculate the std dev. for the based on only 15 samples. This calculation will give us a number that represents how confident we are that the 15 seeds we planted accurately
represent the 300 seeds in the pumpkin.

For 15 seeds.....

std. dev. for the sample = (std. dev. of the 300 seeds)/(n^1/2)

= 7.94/(15^1/2) = 2.05

So, using 15 seeds we've covered a little more than 2 standard deviations. This means that by planting only 15 seeds of the 300, we're representing the 300 seeds with an accuracy of 95 percent. By planting only 15 seeds, you're still getting a fairly accurate representation of all the seeds (95% accuracy to be exact) but you're doing a whole lot less work compared to planting every last seed in the pumpkin.

1/16/2004 10:23:42 PM

Eugene, OR

Sorry if that's a tad dry, but it helps to show your work!

If we're able to plant only a few seeds from a pumpkin without sacrificing accuracy, it would definitely help speed up the progress of the breeding method you're describing as well as make the process possible for those of us who don't have the time, desire, money, and space to grow hundreds of pumpkins each year.

Thanks for the great info Ernie!

Brian

1/16/2004 10:34:17 PM

Sask, Canada

Brian your calculations are correct by my observation and you would need to double (15^1/2) to get the accurate number of seeds needed if you were going for more than two traits in a line but lets not even get into that. As the correct way to do this say if you want a heavy green fruit (heavy and green being the traits) is to go for one and then cross and grow out for the other.

But what I will give to you is not grow 100 seeds or even 15 seeds, just grow 2 and through other growers that grow that seed exchange info or use the AGGC for it, select a trait you are going for and pick the best two seeds you can if they don't produce the trait you want look at others or repeat the process the next season. creating a pure strain or true to type is not just a one season goal but could take several seasons or even up to 6 years to complete but in the end you will have a true to type seed that will produce consistent fruit for what ever traits you bred your line for...

By your understanding and knowledge of what it takes to grow out a pure line as shown in your post you are well on your way to acheiving this, Good Luck

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 1:55:29 AM

Stouffville

Hey Ernie, you say the 705 is great but don't feel the same about the 783, if i understand you correctly? It seems to me that the 500 hebb has been fairly decently bred. it's got lots of 722 and 827 holland and also 717.5 macdonald shows up quite symmetrically too. Also what would you call the 723? It's obvious about the line breeding of the 935, but what about the 865?

1/17/2004 11:33:51 AM

Sask, Canada

Well lets look at it this way and you decide, the 705 Stelts is what you are refering too.

The 500 Hebb was a result of yes good crosses from the 722,827 etc. as they are all related in the same family line a few generations back but this good crossing, (not the most straight forward example of line breeding mind you) was out crossed at the 500, the 793 Zehr outcrossed to the 658 Vanhoutte made the 500. Now the 783 which was from the 500 was again the result of a further outcross back to back the 500 outcrossed to the 801.5 Stelts made the 783 Daletas.

Next the 705 which is from the 801.5 was the result of the 801.5 being outcrossed to the 974.5 Mettler.

Which do you think...

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 4:51:48 PM

Sask, Canada

Also as far as the 723 this has got to be the best line-bred seed out there as well as the 845 time will tell if the 714 or 838 will follow suit but my guess is most likely they will, but remember the line has not been bred selectively, and these could turn out to be duds.

No the 865 is not line bred but it provides the hybrid vigor to the 935 which is one of the best examples of a clean line bred Ag.

Now if you see in my example and if the 935 was bred to say another line bred strain you would get bigger bang for the buck, plus throw in select breeding and you could pop 1000'lber's till the cows came home. But with the 865 you get alot of big fruit but not consistent then you get the odd green pop out which if it was me I would breed this trait out of the Lloyd strain cross it out to a line bred orange strain then continue line breeding for a bit till you got rid of it. Finally this has happened and if you don't beleive me watch the next few seasons with the 723 x 846 and the 846 x 723 crosses like the 842 Eaton.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 5:10:11 PM

Stouffville

so you're saying mother influence vs father influence is an issue then? ie, if there existed a seed that was 801.5x500hebb it would perform consistently but the 783 (500x801.5) won't be consistent. ie for a hybrid vigor cross the female must be the line bred strain. -mike

1/17/2004 5:53:26 PM

Stouffville

also the 582 hester came from the 940 mombert, a 567.5 crossback. How does the 940 mombert compare with the 801.5?

1/17/2004 6:01:54 PM

Sask, Canada

No, no influence you have the the 705 that was crossed out once then you have the 783 that was crossed out twice in the line and back to back, yes the 705 had the one mombert crossed out to the 963 Zehr but three generations back.

It is difficult to explain with all the factors (seeds) involved, I will just say I like the 705 better than the 783 based on the fact that the 783 was crossed out twice back to back the 705 wasn't.

as for the 940 and 801.5 I don't prefer to cross back when breeding a pure line as you are weeding out traits not bring them back into the line.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 6:59:16 PM

Stouffville

So Ernie, if i'm understanding you better now, you're saying the 974 Mettler is better for making a consistent hybrid vigor cross than the 500Hebb since it has 827/722 holland on both sides of its family tree, thus is more line bred than the 500Hebb, and the 500Hebb is more of a hybrid then?

It should be interesting to see the results of the 963 Stucker (801.5 x 935) in the future. The 1252 and 1082 Mackinnon would be interesting to play around with too. They're 963 Stucker x 845 Bobier and vice versa. -mike

1/18/2004 12:00:59 AM

ontario

Ernie we will never grow a giant purple pumpkin...not in the color rules LOL

1/18/2004 8:32:37 AM

hey you

Greencastle, PA

i've been considering growing a purple pumpkin. The garden center I work at has a florist, so i have easy access to color dyes. The dyes are mixed with water and cut flowers are put in them, they absorb the water, and the dye. This causes light colored flowers especially to change color, so if I can get a white pumpkin, i think i could get some dyes and inject them into the stem of the fruit (don't want a purple plant). But wayne's right, nothing in the color rule about purple.
Tom

1/18/2004 10:41:31 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

My phone # is...

1-719-232-7690

Anyone wishing to discuss this topic in detail... I have some information about all this and some ideas. I know much on older genetics and how they tie in to todays genetics, and also know some of the "unspecified" information on quite a few genetic seeds. Anyone really wanting to take time to share and discuss this can call me... WAAAYYYY too much to write and post on this...LOL

Marc Sawtelle

1/18/2004 2:18:15 PM

Sask, Canada

Marc:

If I haven't already phoned you I will as I am very interested in this area of Ag's.

Also may I further purpose We set up a date and time in one of the chat rooms here to hold a discusion on the subject.

Chime in if you would like to get a chat time/date set up and when would be best....

A weekend evening say on a Sunday would work best for me say 7:00 8:00 pm CST or I believe that is 9:00 EST and 6:00 Pacific.... How about the 25th of January....

Throw your two cents in...

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/18/2004 4:54:46 PM

Sask, Canada

Maybe some one would like to moderate it as well...

1/18/2004 4:55:41 PM

Gads

Deer Park WA

Set up some Friday or Saturday night Ernie. I enjoy the topic of genetic manipulation of Squash strains.

1/18/2004 9:40:04 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

I like the idea... anyone else?

We did this once last year and I think we all got some good input and theories from everyone who took part. It won't be any Niagra stuff...LOL... but yeah, there are lots of thoughts on this subject, so I'm game!

I think it's up to everyone as to a good date and time, just like it's going to be everyones discussion. I may know a good deal of specific things on AG breeding, but others know things I'd like to hear and comprehend to further my research! Thats what it's about, right guys? I could share some of the things I've picked up on, evidence or proof which supports my theories, as others I'm sure can as well.

It sounds like a win win thing to me... we all come out smarter, somehow. OR... we confuse ourselves even more... LMAO!!!

Welty...Atlis...Beachy...Wolf...Andrews...Shymanski..Eddie, Ernie, Neperney, Noskee, Kane...and all you mad breeders I could add past the 2000 characters allowed {LOL}... lets head bang!!!

marc

1/18/2004 10:03:10 PM

Snake Oil

Pumpkintown, SC

Yeah...I'm in. I'd like to hear other view points on crosses I should make(and why) with a few of my older seeds I'm growing this year:
827 Holland
722 Holland
567.4 Wallace
825.5 Shymanski
Etc...

1/19/2004 10:49:36 AM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

here's something i will be doing for the next half-hour or so---
"If you want an insite into hybrid vigor or select breeding look at the 935 Lloyd and it's offspring or the 801.5 Stelts and it's offspring now look at the results of these two crossed together, there you have hybrid vigor from the same variety."
I'm on my weigh to a greater understanding. Thanks, Ernie!

1/20/2004 1:11:31 PM