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Appalachian Mtns.

OK, let's say you have a "vigor" cross seed...I know, I'm not for or against "vigor" it's just a term, to describe 2 seed, in this case both proven, crossed together of completely different lineage. But let's be real, that rarely happens so let's assume these 2 seed may have some commonality but at say, 4 generations back. From that point they go in different directions.
Now, what would you cross it with? Another "hot" seed, self, or, if you could, crossback to the great-grandmother.
Be interesting to hear your comments....

1/16/2004 5:34:28 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

If the seed was producing perfect plants and pumpkins I would cross it with itself or another physically like it.

If not I would cross it with an unlike in the hope of creating something better.

1/16/2004 5:49:40 PM

Sask, Canada

now we are getting into some good debate and fact searching...

Ok lets look at this shall we, the Ag's came about by two and only two parents then It has grown from there and the reason we have this size, that shape, or the green, tan, dark orange etc. is from crossing, some growing out a line to produce more constant orange (stelts) some lighter colored (Lloyd) some green (hester, Stellpflug, Welty)

Do we have a seed that will produce a 1000lb'er every time or a greenie? no, but we are really close, so close in fact that the green is almost predictable.

Now to your question...

It rarely happens because again people take a good seed and cross it with any other seed they can sprout and contaminate a strain. example crossing a 895.5 Hester to the 801.5 stelts. one green the other dark orange.

cont'd

1/16/2004 6:16:19 PM

Sask, Canada

ok 4 generations back, going different directions.

Now at one point you talk about two seeds, ok my mistake,

There is only really one choice here I would NOT cross it to another hot seed as then you bring in more strains and you want to work with as few as possible to create a true hybrid vigor in the end.

I would NOT Self it as then you end up with all the same seed.

I would never cross it back to it's great grandmother on either the mother or father's side.

I would SIB the seed and then one seed from each I would self then one seed from each of the self's I would Cross then the cross I would out cross.

You end up with A X A1 = B and A1 X A = C then BxB = D and CxC = E then D X E = F

Now you have a pure strain in F traced back to two parents over a minimum of 3 generations out cross this to a similar strain with the same line breeding and end result and start again

Say F X Q = A and A1 and on you go again....

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/16/2004 6:35:58 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

But what if the great-grandmother was the 935 Lloyd? Does that change your line of thinking?

1/16/2004 6:50:07 PM

Sask, Canada

Sorry Kyle, had a few beer and what I thought I won't put down.

No it will not change my way of thinking unless I know what the other seeds are that are involved.

My way of thinking and I hope is correct any one please correct me if I'm wrong. Is based on facts in which one would grow disease resistent crops, breed purebreed dogs, breed race horses etc. etc. oh and create a new tomato variety like the "Giant Titan Tomato".

Breed with-in a family line to purify the strain, breed etc. then when all the negative traits, mutants, etc. are bred out of the line leaving only traits we want as an outcome for example a fast horse, disease resistent crop, big tomato's, green squash etc. etc.

sorry got to run....

If you want Kyle post which seed(s) were talking about or e-mail me so I can be more presise.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/16/2004 7:37:44 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Ernie:
You say you would rather sib than self? I don't believe a selfed plant simply produces "the same seed." Aren't the genes further narrowed down & reinforced by selfing? Sibbing allows for a wider range of gene combinations. Or am I wrong here? I'm no expert...
Frank

1/17/2004 10:18:30 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

My point/question exactly, Frank. BF

1/17/2004 11:29:44 AM

Lloydminster/AB

Ernie: Please help me get this straight. I will start with a hypothetical situation. Suppose I crossed 2 plants with traits that I liked—color from one and fast growth from the other. The pumpkin that these two traits combine is called 'Eve'. I grow seeds from Eve and George grows seeds from Eve. Mine turns out pale but a fast grower and George's turns out to be orange and a fast grower. Hopefully, then he has at least one pumpkin on his plant that has been selfed called 'George'. We take seeds from George, plant 10 (G1-G10). We grow 10 pumpkins on each of these plants. Each one of these pumpkins has been pollinated by one of the other plants. The problem is we can’t tell which of these pumpkins will have the characteristics of George that we want. So after enough growth has occurred, we can narrow down to maybe G1 and G5, both are orange and fast growing so we turf all the other pumpkins on all the other plants except for the 2 pumpkins that exist on each of G1 and G5. Now what should I do with the offspring from G1 and G5? There should be a G1 x G5, a G1 x G1, a G5 x G1 and a G5 x G5. Would it be better to take the two self-pollinated pumpkins (G1 x G1 and G5 x G5) and grow them or should we grow them all and continue the process? I can see how this would take a lot of people and a lot of space as well as a couple of years. There is another problem. Because we are growing for genetics and not for optimal size, we may never know if we have made a cross that will make 1500 lbs. unless we grow one for size every year. Also, everyone if you have a plant that is growing good, self one on there and then we should have a chance to purify that line—just another rambling thought. Send your pictures to Mike when you submit your results to A.G.G.C. Don

1/17/2004 2:02:07 PM

Sask, Canada

Ok guys, you get half from your mother and half from your father you know the story....

Now I don't care how much line breeding a person does they will never grow every single pumpkin from a pure strain exactly the same so that it is 1019.5 pounds and the same colour etc. etc. there is just way to many variables. What we are trying to do is grow consistent so one would be able to take a seed and with good knowledge know that the seed they plant 95 times out of a hundred say would be green, dark orange, thick walled, big stemmed etc.

Today's seeds are getting crossed with everything except for a few growers what I am attempting to do is take this sport to the next level where growers actually have a goal in mind with their crosses and they cross based on facts on how to achieve that.

Sorry but since I opened my mouth I'm getting bombarded with questions and e-mails not that I mind I would love to help but try to do some homework,

cont'd

1/17/2004 5:37:38 PM

Sask, Canada

Maybe what I should do is open up a thread on here for say classes on breeding if other growers want to chime in go ahead. Got questions e-mail me and I'll try to devote an hour or two each day to the subject both on the thread and in e-mails.

Now I have been doing breeding mainly on tomatoes for nine years now but do not have a degree or am I perfect if I'm wrong tell me so others don't learn what is wrong.

Also let's put some real effort into this so hopefully growers can go from planting any seed that some one says is the next hot seed and then crossing it with any thing just because they need to pollinate it with something. To going to where growers plant a seed because they want a big one and they trade and cross seed based on knowledge.

I'll finish answering questions on self x sib and then Don's then I'll move this to a new thread please post there so I don't have a thousand threads to read.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 5:51:29 PM

Sask, Canada

Edwards:

Yes you are correct, think of it like this your mom has 1000 kids with the same man, ok your dad...(snicker) they are all different but with similarity's

Now

Your mom has 1000 kids with different men orange, green, long stemmed, short stemmed etc etc. (this is the typical Ag seed lines today) they are all different and with hardly any similarity's, except for a handful of seed lines.

So we want to focus on the 1000 kids from your mom with your dad and begin weeding out all the traits we don't want so the best way to do this is by sibbing two kids together so we have a wider range of gene combinations and create a purer line if you will,

I prefer to do this near the end of the line before we out cross as if any traits remain we don't want there is a more likely hood given the gene combinations that they will show themselves here.

I hope you were able to grasp that.

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 6:07:14 PM

Sask, Canada

Ok Don I'll try to follow, let me put into a form I use....

you cross (A)color x (B)fast = (C)fast,color(EVE)

(C)x(C)= (D)George

(D)x(D)1, (D)x(D)2 etc....=(E)1,(E)5

(E)1 X (E)5 = (F) and (E)5 X (E)1 = (G)

(F) X (G) = (H) or Harry which has fast color

Or you could breed true for color then cross out to a line bred true for fast and breed this line pure for a few generations. (Snicker)

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 6:34:04 PM

Sask, Canada

Don,

This looks very similar to a cross plan I worked out today at work, for two particular seeds. I hope you aren't doing what I may think your doing..... LOL

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/17/2004 7:04:25 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Ernie:
Yep. Grasping it just fine. But since we're talking hypotheticals here, if it's all just the same with you, let's say YOUR momma has 1000 kids with different men orange, green, long stemmed, short stemmed etc etc...

(just kidding!)

But seriously, I still would prefer selfing to sibbing unless your are trying to breed out a bad trait. Let's say you grow two 1225 Jutras(03) in your patch this year. You self them and one turns out 1300 and bright orange, great shape. The other takes after pappa and turns out 900 and cream color. Aren't you glad you selfed your orange one rather than sibbed it with the cream one? (Presuming you'd prefer heavy and orange.) In this case selfing gives you better odds of preserving those desirable traits than sibbing...
No?
Frank

1/18/2004 9:59:53 PM

Lloydminster/AB

Thanks Ernie, I think I am on the right track though it might
take some time to prove it:)

Don

1/21/2004 10:53:23 AM