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Willamette Valley, Oregon

Posted this in the general forum but re-posting here, in case you missed it.

There are really only 3-4 maternal lines left:
845 Bobier (and it's mom the 935 Lloyd)
846 Calai (via 825.5 Shymanski)
898 Knauss
and
895.5* Hester

That has been the case for many years, but we may be about to lose a maternal line:
898 Knauss does not appear in the maternal lines of any major seeds/fruit in 2017.

Anyone looking to do some genetic diversity crosses may want to consider these seeds to save the 898 Knauss maternal line:

1369 Breznick 2017 (1710 Breznick 2014 x 1585.5 Werner 2014)

1549.5 Urena 2016 (991 Urena 2005 x 2145.5 McMullen 2015)

1710 Breznick 2014 (1843.5 Geddes 2012 x 1530.5 Breznick 2013) and offspring:
http://tools.pumpkinfanatic.com/FruitProgeny.php?FruitName=1843.5%20Geddes%202012

1204 Bowman 2014 (1689 Jutras 2007 x 1421.5 Stelts 2009)

1843.5 Geddes 2012 (1140.2 Finders 2011 x 1704 Urena 2011) and offspring:
http://tools.pumpkinfanatic.com/FruitProgeny.php?FruitName=1843.5%20Geddes%202012

1704 Urena 2011 (991 Urena 2005 x 1468.5 Stevens 2010) and offspring:
http://tools.pumpkinfanatic.com/FruitProgeny.php?FruitName=991%20Urena%202005

3/12/2018 3:40:53 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

The 1314 Beauchemin has 898 as the matriarch and at one point was the only 1300+ ever grown with no 845 Bobier in it

Also, the 1156 Larsen strikes me as an old seed worth trying and infusing with contemporary genetics. An 1156 offspring like the 1291 Rodonis could be worthwhile and I think somebody did an 1156 x 1068 Wallace at some point and it never got planted. The 1156 was where it all began for the 898 Knauss and was only surpassed twice in the all subsequent plantings. It was probably the best 898 Knauss plant ever grown.

3/12/2018 8:36:50 PM

Zimmerman, Minnesota

New to pumpkin growing question....what squash did Dill use to make the first Atlantic Giants, if you went back to those squash you could probably get new genetics....but would you want to? Would you have to start over small?

3/12/2018 11:24:24 PM

Grittyville, WA

Scott... what do you mean by maternal line? Is there a difference between paternal and maternal genetics? It seems like the 898 is well represented in every pumpkin today via the Pukos lineage... isn’t it? I’m interested in this discussion... I just don’t get it though!

3/12/2018 11:30:14 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

The mitochondrial and chloroplast DNA only come from the mother or "maternal line" mother's mother's mother's....mother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

It's a small amount, and honestly I'm not sure it matters, but just in case is seems worth trying to conserve.

3/13/2018 1:08:44 AM

Grittyville, WA

I hope my 1462 Gibson x 1415 Haist seeds are viable then... 1462 Gibson was a great plant for me it outperformed many others. I wish I had selfed it or crossed it with a heavy orange pumpkin but oh well the 1415 was a good plant too. Great info thanks!!

3/13/2018 2:08:11 AM

Grittyville, WA

Alan says he has no more of those 1462’s btw but its definitely got some fine genetics... if anyone has one... let us know?

3/13/2018 2:10:50 AM

Oak Grove, Mn

This is interesting. Maybe this could be a reason why reverse crosses do not always perform as well. Maternal DNA is something that I have never heard of before.

3/13/2018 6:23:32 AM

Germany

For those who haven´t heard of effects of maternal DNA before, a nice example (although it isn´t from the world of pumpkins, not from the world of plants at all) is the effect of maternal DNA when horses and donkeys are crossed. There are two types of mules, and it really depends on who´s mother and who´s father.

3/13/2018 7:28:21 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

Thought about growing my 1144 Graham (1287 Vankooten x sibb) many times .Loaded with 845 and 723 but no 898....maybe next year

3/13/2018 8:03:42 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

Joe P.    
Leicester, NY

To answer Brett’s question of what seed did the most to advance our hobby, I’m going back in time and my picks are the 935 Lloyd and 935 Lloyd. Specifically, two of 935’s that Bill Bobier bought at the Grower’s seminar, Guelph, Ontario in 1999. For those that were not there that day, Bill was first in line and with the first come, first serve etiquette in place then, he was allowed to purchase all the 935’s, perhaps 5 or 6 in all. Didn’t seem fair at that time that no one else in line would have a chance for those coveted seeds. But as luck would have it, all turned out well when the 723 and 845 were grown in 1999 and 2000 respectively off those 935 Lloyds. For me personally, the 723 changed my pumpkin growing life in 2000 with my first 4 digit fruit. Together, the 723 and 845 have had perhaps the biggest impact on where we are with today’s genetics. Mix in the 898 and 846 genetics and you get the 1068 and 998.6 and all the other wonderful

3/13/2018 8:53:38 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

If I recall correctly the 898 Knauss was one of the hottest seeds out there when I starting growing around 2003. It tended to produce fruit that were very heavy to the chart. Jim B.(from eastern U.S.) did some crosses that had a lot of 898 genes in them. I had some seeds that were 898 X self. I might still have them. I never grew them, as the 898 wasn't known for producing orange pumpkins.

3/13/2018 7:58:45 PM

Colorado

I'm not so sure this matters that 898 isn't in mothers side. Its well entrenched in the 1409 miller and 1385jutras lines so I feel its still very relavent.

3/14/2018 12:49:35 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I'm mostly with you, Joe. I've argued before that the maternal line doesn't seem to matter for fruit size, and I still think that has not been disproven. (And Knauss genes, in general, are well represented among current seeds.) But maybe there will be other factors in the future that maternal line could influence.

I'm concerned that first the Knauss maternal line will go, then the Calai maternal line won't be far behind. It could be fine for awhile, but from a genetic diversity standpoint that seems an unnecessary risk.

3/19/2018 11:36:12 PM

Rapid City, SD

just food for thought....the advances in growing methods have changed over the years.....so it would be fair to say there are many older seeds that would grow bigger growing the way we do currently over how it was grown years ago...just kinda sad that all these great genetic seeds from years gone by are given an interest in bringing them back....who knows what the next 2145 or 2009 could come from this....i think there is to much empathist on growing seeds that are %heavy and to the genetics.....seems these days a seed that went heavy will be grown 10 to 1 over a seed that didn't.....climate and growing strategies play a big factor in heavy and light is my belief

3/24/2018 10:48:01 AM