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Cincinnati,OH

Lets say I grow 4 pumpkins from the same plant.
All 4 pumpkins were self pollinated.
Pumpkin 1 is far superior to the other 3.
The question is, will the superior traits be more prominate from the seed from pumpkin 1 or will all 4 seeds have the same chance of reproducing the desired traits?

3/15/2004 8:16:16 PM

Deer Park, WI

This is the process of natural selection in action! The best genes survive, the weak fall by the wayside. I say your chances of growing a "superior" fruit from the seeds contained in fruit #1 is far better than the chances of growing a "superior fruit from the other 3. There are no guarantees in genetics, but you can certainly increase your chances by going with #1.

3/16/2004 8:50:54 AM

Greencastle, PA

take the 1230 and 1016 Daletas for example, seed and pollen from the same plants, are these seeds two different but from similar parents, or are they sibling because they're from the exact same plant, therefore having the same genetic possibility? And the superiority of fruit #1 could have been based only on a better location or more complete pollination or better care.
Tom

3/16/2004 6:07:51 PM

Long Island,New York

and the smaller 1016 is generally considered the better seed.............g

3/16/2004 7:54:31 PM

Melbourne, Australia

if all four pumpkins are grown on the same plant and self polinated then the range of genetic potential would be the same no matter which pumpkin the seed came from.
each pumpkin on this plant would carry the same genetics and if pumpkin 1 is better than the rest it is due to other variables eg. position on the plant, time it was polinated, structure/shape of the fruit etc. andrew.

3/16/2004 11:22:26 PM

Utah

Andrew... no No NO! ... all of the 4 fruit are the same cross but they do not carry the same genetics.
here is a quick example: lets say that "superior" in this case is color.
fruit #1 is orange.
fruit #2 is green.
fruit #3 is half orange and half green.
and fruit #4 is white.
If you want to grow an orange fruit next year from which fruit would you choose your seeds?
who knows why the four fruit ended up different colors... for some reason they just did. But the seeds of each fruit is more likely to pass on the color of the fruit it came from. Not guaranteed but more likely...
The same example would hold true with many other fruit characteristics, shape, size etc...
Yes environmental factors do influence fruit characteristics. if the four fruit were all different ages then it would be difficult to make a size comparision on them. also if you shades or oil some and not others you could change their color.
There is more to it than just selecting any given cross... seed with the same cross have different genetics. This is why when people look for seeds they into account the fruit that it came from. if one of those fruits had a "superior" characteristic then you would be more likely to plant that seed. or if a seed from one of those fruit has already had success or produced fruit that characteristic then you would be more likely to plant that seed.

3/17/2004 10:22:01 AM

Greencastle, PA

if they were all bred using the same plants the seeds in pumpkin number one would have the same potential as the seeds from pumpkins 2, 3, and 4. While they may look different they were all grown on the same plant and pollinated with the same plant, therefore giving them the same genetic variation as seed #2 and seed#302 from a given fruit. It's my opinion that in a case like that the seeds from each fruit would be siblings because although they were from different fruit they have equal genetic background and potential.
Tom

3/17/2004 5:52:23 PM

That State Up North

The somatic mutation rate is generaly not considered high enough to play a roll in this situation. Therefore you can assume the direct inheritance of genes in a linear fashion from gene lines. Thus all will be constant if the genotype of maternal and paternal influences is held constant.

Nic Welty

3/17/2004 7:06:55 PM

Melbourne, Australia

g1t... what 'hey you' has said is correct. altho the 4 pumpkins all look different, they all have the exact same geneticsthe differences between 2 pumpkins on a single plant has absolutely nothing to do with genetics. therefore selecting seeds for 'superior' characteristics between these pumpkins is utterly pointless. and given that the seeds are all selfed, all drawing from the exact same limited gene pool, every seed, no matter which fruit it came from will have the same genetic 'potential' as every other seed.
get yourself a biology text book and read up on basic genetics- its an incredibly interesting topic. andrew

3/17/2004 8:57:01 PM

Iowa

Maybe glt was thinking that Ron meant he planted 4 different seeds all from the same pumpkin? But I think he meant 4 pumpkins on ONE plant from one seed. I should just stay out of it, but I just thought I'd make sure everyone was talking about the same thing. I have never heard of 4 different colored pumpkins on one plant.

3/17/2004 9:28:12 PM

Utah

... you're right, my mistake. i was thinking the four pumpkin were 4 children from the same parent but in reality they are four genetically indentical children. that for some reason have different traits. and if you agree with what Nic said...(and i do- but didn't yesterday) then yes I agree they all have more or less the same genetic potenial. but in all reality if you had 4 pumpkins and you tought one was "superior" to the other, and even though logic says they are all the same, i don't think anyone on this list would plant the seed from the other 3 fruit of the one he thought was superior, right ?

as for the "get yourself a biology text book and read up on basic genetics" comment- thanks for the advise...apparently I am a little rusty on the subject...and yes it is an interesting topic.

3/18/2004 10:22:25 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. From what I read it sounds like a couple of differant theories.

You have one pumpkin plant with 4 pumpkins growing on it, all females were selfed. One pumpkin is better than the other three regardless of pollination date, vine position etc. Now the question is will these good qualities shown with pumpkin #1 be shown in the offspring of pumpkins #2,3 and 4. I would have to say that your chances of growing a fruit the following year with the good characteristics of pumpkin #1 would be best with seeds from #1, let me explain.

If you have 4 children from the same male and female and 3 out of the 4 needed glasses as children. The likelihood of offspring with perfect eyesight would be greater from the sibbling that did'nt need glasses. You noticed I used the word likehood, the children from the perfect eyesight parent could be blind as a bat.

The same can be said about this question. The pumpkins that are produce from the seeds from #4 could be great and the seeds from #1 could be less than great. I beleive its a gamble either way. Your odds are better I beleive with seeds from a fruit that display qualities that you desire. Rather than using seeds from fruit that do not show the qualities but has the possiblities to show them.

Now fire away and shut me up before I really post some B.S. Dean o

3/18/2004 12:14:14 PM

Indiana

In this case you are having the children from the same organism not a separate male and a female. So the genetic pool will be the same for all the offspring.
Steve

3/18/2004 2:32:00 PM

Cincinnati,OH

The reason I asked is this situation happened to me last year. I just wanted to know what to expect. Fortunatly, the best looking pumpkin was also the biggest ( mostly due to vine placement and pollination date) and I guess the better color and shape was from a lucky roll of the genetic dice. Therefore I will expect the results from seed 1 to be pretty much the same as the year before and not expect a more frequent display of the desired traits. Thanks everyone for your input. I only kept seeds from pumpkin 1.

3/18/2004 3:44:40 PM

ok so lets say a certain trait is represented by T and t. So the plant's genotype is Tt. Its females will only pass on one of these, T or t. And the male will pass on one of these, T or t. So technically each SEED produced has the potential of being TT or Tt or tt. Am I wrong? Tell me if I am... Each seed and each pumpkin has genes coming from the pool of T and t, but the unique combos that each one gets will be different.

3/18/2004 8:56:15 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Exactly, Brigitte: the progeny is tt, 2x tT and TT. You only have to consider that there are several thousands of different traits besides T, which gives theoretically an enormous number of combinations. In reality not all traits are different in parents and not all are mixed (recombined).
The individual seed have one of the above combinations, and as moondog says, there is no difference between seeds in different fruits as long they are on the same plant (or clone).
Jernej

3/19/2004 2:09:53 AM

Melbourne, Australia

g1t, sorry about the missunderstanding.
you are right, most people would grow the seeds from the better pumpkin if only because that was the one that made it to the weigh off. but if those seeds proved to grow really well but were in short supply, i would definitely try to get hold of seed from one of the other smaller fruit as they should grow equally well.

3/19/2004 8:29:46 AM

Utah

Dean O ... you are making the same mistake i did (till i saw the light) with the eyesight example... the 4 pumpkins are not 4 children from the same parents. The plant that produced the females flowers/pumpkins is the female and they are all the same. all four female flowers are the mother- and since all 4 fruit were selfs, the same plant is the father for all 4 also. so every seed from each of the 4 pumpkins are the children. and any given seed from any of the 4 pumpkins is just as likely as any other to possess "superior" (or inferior) characteristics.
Now if you planted a bunch of those seeds then you would see the variation come out (TT, Tt and tt) like Brigitte and Jernej stated.

3/19/2004 11:22:37 AM

Utah

andrew, no big deal, i was just trying to save face a litte after making a mistake.

3/19/2004 11:28:21 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

I knew better than to post on this thread but I did with hesitation. I know my eyesight analogy was not the best to compare differant pumpkins on a vine.

It seems like random combination of the same genes will produce good and bad results.

Lets say if one pumpkin is orange and the other three are not orange. You wanted to grow an orange pumpkin next year, you would plant the seeds from the non-orange and have the same exact percentage chance of going orange as you would with the fruit with good color.

Thanks for the information. Dean o

3/19/2004 12:56:38 PM

I think this thread is a little confusing. Gordon is right in saying that all the seeds in one pumpkin are just as LIKELY to have the superior traits from their parents. But each seed is NOT genetically identical....that would be like saying me and my siblings are all genetically identical...yikes, there would two of me!

Now if every single gene in both parents was homozygous...then all the seeds produced would be genetically identical...but that's a whole different story, and the likelyhood of that happening are like a kazillion to one.

3/19/2004 11:31:38 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

This is a practical observation not a theoretical one.
There is a pretty well accepted rule that when saving seed you should keep the ones from the plant that produced several good individuals as opposed to one good individual from a plant that just produced that one good one and several mediocre ones.

For example,You have one pea plant with 5 pods with 11 peas inside.If you plant those they are likely to produce 5 pods each with 11 seeds in.
You have another plant with 5 pods one with 11 peas the other 4 with 9 if you plant the seeds from the 11 seeder on this plant you tend to get 5 pods one with 11 seeds 4 pods with 9 even though this pod looks the same as the 5 on the other plant.This has happened to me in real life with potatoes also.

Left to its own devices a pumpkin plant will produce several fruit we keep just one in many instances.
The question is was the one we kept the same as all the rest or was as in the original question "Pumpkin 1 far superior to the other 3" maybe this explains why some pumpkin seeds produce consistent offspring and some don't.

3/20/2004 4:53:07 AM

northern indiana

I would think that each pumpkin would have a chance to have the best genetics. Lets not forget that the plant did not feed each of these fruit equally for one reason or another. I don't believe that the genetic split of the mothers genes that were used for seed formation had anything to do with it. We need to remember that the fruit is only a case for the seeds! It is not the offspring, the seeds are the offspring. The mothers genetic code is what determins the basic shape and potential size of each fruit which is then affected by envirmental factors. As I understand it, (and it is only a basic understanding) the split of the mothers genes for reproduction is only for seed formation. If this is correct then this split will have not bearing on fruit size, shape, color ect.
Eric

3/20/2004 8:48:24 AM

Cincinnati,OH

So if selfing in no way changes the genetic possibilities of the offspring then selfing in no way improves the genetics of the seed, it only maintains it. Would that be correct? So the only way to increase the probability of the desired trait is to cross the seed with another seed that shows the desired trait.

3/20/2004 12:20:12 PM