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Okla

Hello Everyone

Seeds for Hot Weather Climates. I am going to try to get a discussion started about which Pumpkin Seeds would be the BEST seeds for the Very Hot Climates like we have in the Southern part of the United States, (Oklahoma is where I am), and other Countries with similar Heat. Our high temps go into the 100s in the hottest part of the summer for several weeks, with lows generally around the lower to mid 70s at night. Lets get a list started of those seeds for ALL Hot Weather Growers to get an idea from, about which seeds they might consider growing for a Hot Climate 1000 lb. Pumpkin. Tell us what makes you think any seed you list might be good for the hot climates or what the seed might have already done in hot weather. After this discussion gets going then we can also start another list for the cooler climate seeds if anyone wants to.

Let me get the discussions going. I think the 950.4 Boyton is a very good seed. The 950.4 plant handled the heat very well for Carlos in Spain and grew a very large pumpkin. Carlos also grew the 600.5 Gregory and the plant done very well also, BUT there are not any 600.5 seeds left out there hardly. I would love to try the 600.5 Gregory if I could find a seed.

Also the 237 Beachy has been about the best plant we have ever grown so far in 3 years. It started out like gang busters, then we had a cool front move in that we never have here in Oklahoma in July and slowed the growth on it. Good Luck to Everyone this year.

Thomas Hathorn ( who is already thinking about next year's season)

SW Oklahoma

8/3/2004 8:17:46 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I haven't seen any heat related stress on either our 842 Eaton or the 845 Bobier cutting. It hasn'r been a terribly hot summer here (so far). Low 90's haven't fazed either of these while our 805 Pukos was stressing.

8/3/2004 10:29:36 PM

Sloughhouse, CA

Ken Mitchell and Jon Hunt had good luck with their seeds in Elk Grove. I'm growing the 842 Mitchell but females are on the slow side. We have had 1 week of cool weather high's in the 80'. low 90's expected this week. usually we are in triple digits in July and Aug.
The Sacramento is hot during the day but we get Delta winds at night and can turn off the air conditioner. Farmers around her grow grapes, tomatoes, melons, cotton and rice.

8/5/2004 2:16:37 AM

Syracuse, NY

so far, as you have seen with the 950.4, which i am growing right now here in NY, anything with the 845 selfed or the 845 Bobier '00 ITself, lol, should do very well in the heat.
most times i would have to say the root system is highly responsible for the status of the plant and how it will react to a condition such as heat and general stress....

8/5/2004 7:39:13 PM

Ga.

Hope I dont get squashed here,,but my opinion is that no one seed will be heat prone..I think that the majority of heat stress comes from the plant not having an adequate root system to handle the stress and heat..I didnt have a whole lot of wilt this year except on vine tips which were not rooted..But if a seed is heat tolerent,,I'd give the 735 Pukos a score of 10 out 10..It did great.....I use to think patch prep was only 50 % of growing these giants,,but now I'd say more like 75-80%....Just my 2 cents,,what do I know....LOL....Jeff

8/6/2004 7:20:29 PM

Western Pa.

I agree with Jeff on this one. I've always wondered, is it best to "baby" the young plants with frequent waterings, or let it suffer a little to force it to grow deeper, more extensive roots. Some will undoubtedly disagree, but if one grower (or a few) have luck with a certain seed in a warm climate, does that automatically make it a heat tolerant seed? There are just too many variables from one grower to the next!

8/6/2004 8:24:22 PM

Ga.

Pal,
I planted a 950.4,,didnt give it alot of attention,,it contracted mosiac very quickly..I pulled a fruit from it last week so landlord could mow beside electric fence..I have one more fruit on the vine,,very small,,maybe 50-80 lbs..I left it on in hopes of getting seed to maturity.Since I have heard of,,and I say this lightly,,heard of a greenie or two coming from 845,,I crossed it with a 625 welty sq.. Anyway,,what I am trying to say is that the fruit itself has been exposed to all elements of the weather and the skin is still yellow..Its been exposed for probably close to 2 months or better and is just now breaking color..Greenish up by stem,,but yellow towards rear..Confuses me that it hasnt turned orange in the heat and sun we have had..Could this have a little something to do with why the 845 grew so nicely for these 2 in very hot weather? The skin may not be as brittle/sun senestive as others?Maybe I am not making sense here,,but just something I have noticed..In the past my fruit turned quickly as soon as the heat arrived here in south Ga..Thomas,if I have gotton off key here with your post,I apoligize...Jeff

8/6/2004 9:15:01 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I 100% agree with Jeff & Jim in the concept that young plants should be encouraged to "search" for food and water, therefore ultimately increasing the size of the rootzone thru natural survival tactics . In my opinion, far, far, too many people water and fertilize way too much in the initial stages thereby setting themselves up for wilting and heat stresses later.
How are you going to get a hearty root system if the plant has no incentive to grow one because you keep continually feeding and watering?
Plant 'em and leave 'em alone for the first 30 days unless absoluetly necessary, you'll get bigger punkins.

8/7/2004 12:30:42 AM

Joliet, IL

after reading some scientific studies posted on bp.com
last fall about the ability of a squash plant to grow
roots down 6' or better and then branch out in lateral
layers if given a soil medium loose enough to allow
growth that far, i decided to dig pits. big pits.
8' in diameter by 4' deep. af the bottom of the pits,
only in the center, i dug an additional 2' deep by 3'
diameter holes and filled those smaller holes with pea
gravel to act as a french drain. i double dug the entire
patch to a depth of 2 feet before tilling anything in.
after tilling in all the goodies along with 400 pounds
of vermiculite and 60 bags of mulched leaves, i then used
the tilled soil mix to fill back in the holes, slightly compacting and watering the mix in layers so as not to be totally loose. going by the theory presented in the study,
i tried to get as deep as a root system as possible
that drained well and extended as many lateral roots
from the main stump root system. this year my stumps and
vines are twice as big on all plants than last year,
and my pumpkins are also doing considerably better as well.
i think causing a plant to starve to extend its root system
causes more stress on the growth of the plant.

8/7/2004 1:39:33 AM

Joliet, IL

(continued)
stress is stress, and stress is not good. i would think that
healthy well nourished roots will produce more tiny
microscopic hairs as it grows along with the help of
mych. fungi. the more hairs, the more water allowed into
the root system, and less stress to the whole plant
and especially the leaves that produce the photosynthates,
even when exposed to higher temps. also, some plants
have to be genetically better adapting to heat because
this runs across the board on all life, plant and animals.
survival of the fittest. those that adapt, win. this should
hold true with AGs as well. i hate the heat and it stresses
me out bad, but some people are way more tolerant and
prefer to be hot than cold. just some late night ramblings
here for all its worth. i could just be full of manure,
but thats my story so i will have to stick to it.

8/7/2004 1:40:42 AM

Okla

Great info! I still think Seed Genetics can help but now I think they play a very minor roll, With this other info, we can look at going a better direction for next year. Don't let it stop here. What are you other growers thoughts. Also what else can the ones who have contributed already, add. This is some great info that will help not only myself, but other growers. Anyone else agree or disagree. I see a lot about pits, no pits. I want to say "THANK YOU" to the ones that have already helped by posting.
Thomas

8/7/2004 2:35:28 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

I certainly don't advocate "starving" a plant or stressing it to the point of denial of moisture, nutrients, etc., but by the same token, survival of a species is due to the strongest that survive, not by the ones that are spoonfed, which doesn't occur in nature anyway. I think if you go that far then you're creating more stress than the type I advocate to prevent. I'm referring to watering and fertilizing every several days or so when a plant is very young, there's just no need to do that. A new plant should have enough stored energy to adequately provide for the first several weeks. If not, then it's either such a weak genetic specimen that who would really want to grow it?, or your soil conditions are so bad that it's not gonna do well regardless of what you do. A little stress *is* good, it makes plants stronger. Just like a growing bone needs the stress of weight-bearing to become thicker and stronger, a plant neeeds a little stress to grow a heartier root system. I'm talking normal growing type stress, not so extreme that it could kill the plant.
I think pits encourage better root zone growth, I use them myself. You provide a better area for deeper growth, and that's good.
It kills me though to see growers fertilizing anytime within the first month after pollination. If your soil is so poor that you have to fertilize that early, you need to concentrate less on picking seed and more on off-season soil building cause it obviously sucks. Like a friend once told me..fertilizing a young AG plant is like feeding sugar to a diabetic, you're just gonna make them sick with overload.

8/7/2004 7:09:31 AM

Ga.

A little thought about ben/Carlos/and my growing conditions..One thing I will agree on is heat is heat...All 3 of us have hot climates..But where I disagree is comparing the 3 of us..Our growing conditions are different,,I dont care how hot it gets..Different soil,,atmosphire conditions,angle of the sun,,etc...So (I really dont think its fair to say ,,Jeff,,,Carlos and Ben grew a 1000 pounder,,so no reason you cant..Thats just not a fair accusation..Many things are different..If you live on the coast,,you have a sea breeze which in my opinion would keep humidity lower than someone inland..The breeze off the water would also keep things a little cooler....Not much,,but cooler none the less..There are so many different things to compare between growers..I admit,,I am still learning,,where as maybe Carlos and Ben are already there..Maybe they understand things better and I dont..I'm not saying I cant grow a 1000#,,just have to improvise more than ya'll up north due to growing conditions..Am I confusing any of you yet? LOL/...Jeff

8/7/2004 11:46:30 AM

Joliet, IL

i hear ya southern. i didn't fertilize at all until
plants were over 30 days old. overwatering is worse at that stage then underwatering. as long as the soil is moist
enough for the fine hairs to spread. by the way,
could ya tell i had a few beers in that rambling on.
sometimes i wake up and see what i typed and even i
diagree with myself sometimes. lol. as anyone can see
by my longwinded mumbo jumbo, i am a fool when i
have too many budweisers and start typing without even proofreading. i am that idiot loud mouth at your local
bar that is quiet and reserved when i walk in, and in 2 or
3 hours i go from Jeff or Shazzy to my other nickname---
FOGHORN. i can get awfully loud and obnoxious. sorry
if i ever offend any of you, i just get a little
silly sometimes. you should see my whole family at
family functions, we are like the Costanza's from
seinfeld. maybe it has something to do with me being
Polish and Irish. nice cross there, a loud stubborn drunk.
lol. its in the genes.
good luck to all.

8/7/2004 11:59:09 AM

Joliet, IL

sorry thomas for getting off track last night on your
thread. there are somethings in that rambling that makes
sense. but i had a few too many budweisers.
still getting over my split with the brown bottle
remedy. lol. doh.

8/7/2004 12:02:12 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I would think mulching the soil in, and around,the plant, would be beneficial in hot summer areas.
The mulch could keep the soil cooler, and conserve moisture. By counteracting extremes, I would think a mulch would prevent stress to the plant. Of course the plant canopy would be exposed to the heat.
Would there be any disadvantages to the mulch? I'm thinking of trying it here next year.

Doug

8/7/2004 12:16:55 PM

Okla

Jeff your right on about differences even in different parts of the country, but it still shows that pumpkins can take the heat and that a big one can still be grown in the heat , just have to take different measures to adapt. That is the type of info I am looking for to discuss.
Doug the one thing thats bothers me about mulching is it gives bugs a real good place to hide. It might also harbor dampness and give diseases a better chance to survive in. Anyone else have any thing to discuss on this subject?
Shazzy, you were not the least off track, this info is exactly the type of stuff I was trying to get started in a discussion to find out better ways to try to grow in hot climates.
GREAT INFO still coming from discussion!!
Thomas

8/7/2004 3:06:16 PM

San Diego

I have to disagree on genetics not playing a role with heat tolerance. The 950 boyton, it was incredibly heat resistant for boily even on 100 degree days. All of the 950 offspring seem to be very resistant to heat. To prove this point, if it is the better root system, a plant with a deeeper better root system would most likely perform better than one with a small root system.

My friend close to me in san diego, grew a 950 boyton in a 4 by 6 foot planter box, little to no misting system. he also grew an 804 carlson in 325 sq foot area of prepped tilled soil with a nice misting system. The 950 boyton kicked butt over the 804 in heat tolerance and growth rate for the pumpkin in our 85 to 110 degree temps here. The boyton never even wilted. That was with a limited root system too in a small area. It's obvious genetics play a role, maybe not the entire role, but for certain climates, you can't beat certain proven seeds that grow well in heat. The one thing in common, Ben in Australia, Carlos in Spain, and here in san diego, we all have mediterranean climates that are very similar. Anyway, my two cents:)

8/7/2004 3:58:46 PM

Phoenix, AZ

Just my bit to add:

Genetics does play a large part in heat resistance...just look at why we grow AG's and not Big Max or any other pumpkin for that matter. Thermotolerance is no different. However, I definitely think the soil/moisture/nutrient conditions play a major roll and do not count them out. Multiple studies on certain nutrients shows their significance.

I think a discussion into what makes a thermotolerant seed would be just as appropriate as a subjective discussion on which seed is most tolerant. Genetically, it has been proven that thermotolerance is carried from parent to offspring just as "potential" large fruit size is. However, what can be done to carry the thermotolerance? I know of studies that have shown simple things such as pollinating in hot temperatures causes the only heat tolerant pollen to be more successful and thus creating thermotolerant further generations.

8/15/2004 1:00:57 PM

Covington, WA

What are the physical characteristics of the plants that seem to perform well in the heat? It is not something I have to contend with often growing in Western Washington state, but we have a few scorchers most summers and my observations have been that the plants with tall leaf stalks seem to have less leaf burn and wilting. I believe this is because the leaves are able to get more air circulation under them and are not as close to the soil surface where the air tends to be hottest. Also the ones where the growing tips tend to curve upward from the soil level are least likely to burn. Leaf size seems to make little difference, but I have had few plants that produce the smaller leaves. One may reason that the plants with smaller leaves would lose less fluids than larger ones through evapotransiration and it may be possible to prove this experimentally, but this isn't the time of year for those experiments. I would think an essential would be a well developed root system that permeates both surface soils and deep soil around the plant. Slow day at work and thought I'd do a little rambling on this topic.

10/6/2004 5:30:49 PM