Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Why on earth would you want to cross-pollinate the 1446? Other than improving its shape through selection, I would think you already have all the firepower for a big pumpkin right there. Randomly cross-pollinating it is probably going to negate a lot of that. Cross-pollination is only done every few generations and only when it serves to introduce or reinforce a specific phenotype or phenotypes. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

11/23/2004 6:18:23 AM

Knopp, Germany

Not knowing enough about genetics to answer why one would want to cross pollinate the 1446, I would really like to see what some of the people that do know something about AG or for that matter any plant/crop genetics have to say.

I can tell you that it is human nature to do by example, and for newer growers like myself, the examples have got to be around 99% that most of the seeds that do well now are cross pollinations. Why did anyone ever cross the 842 with another seed for example? Or the 723, or 846, and on and on? Those seeds were in fact a product of cross pollination.

There are the obvious few selfed seeds that have done well (735 Pukos as an example), but they are truely few and far between. Is this simply a result of not sibbing more, and having them grown?

I hope we get some informative feedback on this subject.

owen

11/23/2004 6:43:07 AM

PUMPKIN MIKE

ENGLAND

Owen & Marc
Good questions and i do hope that the Heavy Hitters see this post and give us their oppinions on this sometimes confusing but very interesting topic. Heavy Hitters.......Chip in Please.

11/23/2004 7:32:18 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I need help with this subject as well. It seems as if crossing is what created the 1446. Or is it?

1446 = 842 Eaton x 1301.5 Eaton

842 = 846 Calai x 723 Bobier
1301.5 = 842 x 1236 Eaton

846 Calai = 801.5 Stelts x 876.5 Lloyd
723 Bobier = 935 Lloyds x 865 Mettler
1236 eaton = 723 Bobier x 846 Calai

Cross-pollinating is in the 1446 Eaton's recent history or is this an example of line-breeding? I hear folks say that line-breeding is necessary before cross-breeding. Where in the 1446s hierarchy did that happen?

This could be a very informative thread.

11/23/2004 8:04:38 AM

Utah

I'd self it.

In the long run I think if we want to develop consistant friut characteristics we need to be doing A LOT more selfing. and shouldn't that be one of our main goals?

Yes the 1446 was a product of crossing, and cross backing.
And I'm sure that a lot of thought and effort was put into making the crosses. And what AL has done makes sense. And is it hard to disagree with the thinking because look it is a world record! right ! and If crossing increases vigor then that's what one would want to do.

But to be honest, I think, AGitated is right most of our crosses, and thus fruit are really random. All one has to do is look at the variety of fruit that is produced from any given seed. The is a lot of variation out there.
Yes we like this characteristic from this fruit and another one from that friut. Wouldn't it be great to bring those to together?

Instead what we should be doing is finding a fruit that we really really like, that has all of the characteristics that we desire in a fruit and keep selfing it until it throws consistant fruit. But that is difficult to do. Because we often give up on the idea for some reason or another. The fruit was light, the wrong shape, wrong color, etc...

And selfing is boring. Our minds love to explore and think of all the different possiblities. Wouldn't it be great if ? ... so we make crosses instead of selfing.

And I'm just as guilty as anybody else. I grew 4 pumpkins this year and one was selfed, one was open and the other 2 were crosses. And some days I like my crosses and other days I think ... why didn't I just self that ! and I hope to do more selfing in the future. but it is hard to stop thinking what if?

11/23/2004 9:30:18 AM

Knopp, Germany

Gordon, I follow your thinking on this. A couple of questions:

1 - Why haven't the big name growers done the same thing? 2 - Now granted, I am not an AGGC guru, but I wonder how many selfed or sibbed pumpkins have been grown by someone that is already in the 1000 pound club? 3 - And if they did grow a selfed or sibbed seed, which one was it? 4 - And, what was their plan?

I hope we get some more input, and it would really be cool if someone that has grown one, say over 1200 pounds would tell us their thoughts.

owen

11/23/2004 9:49:44 AM

Knopp, Germany

oh I forgot, I do not want this thought to get lost:

Is it possible that it is only because selfed or sibbed seeds have not been grown enough tp prove them out?

11/23/2004 9:51:31 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Owen makes a valid point. However perhaps more important than hearing from someone who's GROWN a 1200+lb fruit would be hearing from the person who produced the PARENT SEED of the 1200+ pounder.

11/23/2004 9:56:15 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

If we examine just the 842 Eaton, the last time a selfed seed is found in the hierarchy tree is 4 generations back. On the paternal (723) side, back further into the Lloyd side is the 687 Lloyd '95 which grew the 875 Lloyd '96 which grew the 935 Lloyd & the rest is history.

Looking back the same number of generations on the Maternal side yileds (HORRORS!) the open pollinated 567.5 Mombert '92.

Point being there isn't much selfing in this seeds history.

But is there a hint of line breeding? I don't know enough about this subject to do much more than state what I have observed.

11/23/2004 10:07:53 AM

Knopp, Germany

Stve, you are going a different direction, which is cool. I think that line breeding, etc is a separate theory. I hope we get some input on the selfing and sibbing side of this........

11/23/2004 10:10:55 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I think you've made a good point in your last comment Owen,remember "Thousand pounders don't grow thousand pounders" haven't heard that one much lately.

11/23/2004 10:12:08 AM

Kelly Klinker

Woodburn, Indiana

sib

11/23/2004 10:46:51 AM

Utah

Here is a question for you all... Which would you rather plant and why ?

707 Toftness or 1141 Sundstrom (707 Toftness x self)?

846 Calai or 835 Pukos (846 Calai x self) or 894 Pukos (835 Pukos x self) ?

11/23/2004 10:55:36 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The largest pumpkin on AGGC that was grown from a "self pollinated mother" is the 1179 Kline '04 grown from the 735 Pukos (846 Calai x self) which is the only selfed seed that anyone ever seems to grow. LOL

11/23/2004 11:06:05 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

1142 van Kooten '04 = 1066 Vezzolo x 1367.5 Rose

1066 Vezzolo = 824 Bobier x self

11/23/2004 11:20:39 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Ah, my favorite subject. Yes, I do believe vigor crosses
exist, but ONLY once the two parents of the vigor cross
are already fairly purified.

Just look at the more notable seeds from history:

567.5 Mombert, (616 Holland X 609 Laemmle)
That 609 Laemmle, the story goes, came from a man who just
saved the seeds from his best fruit every year, or a long
period of years. The line became purified. Then introduce
a new line... We got the benefit of nice color that had been
fixed by Laemmle.

723 Bobier (935 Lloyd X 865 Mettler)
Of course, the 935 Lloyd, a very purified line.
The 935 Lloyd and other Lloyd stocks have given rise to
many great seeds, because they were first purified.

846 Calai (801.5 Stelts X 876.5 Lloyd)
Sure the 801.5 is great and the genes are fairly pure, but
also that 876.5 is pure as well.

I think what we have in the 898 Knauss is a very interesting
"genetic", that has a propensity for thick walls. The 898
should be SELFED!!! Why? In hopes of setting that gene,
keeping it, isolating it, reinforcing it, whatever. Then,
after selfing it once or twice, then do the cross, maybe
with something aggressive or just plain big in volume.

11/23/2004 11:52:07 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Gordon,

As to your question, I'd grow your 8XX (don't remember the
actual) which is the 735 Pukos X Self, which is the 846 X Self.

So it the 846 Calai, selfed twice. No low weights in there.
It's now prime for crossing. (Or selfing again, who knows?)

As for the Toftness or Sundstrom, I'd also take the selfed
seed, the Sundstrom. And at 1141, there is a hint that
perhaps that PARTICULAR 707 that grew it was one of the
better seeds of all the 707's. Again, that's something that
is hard for us to quantify, where any particular seed sits
in it's own bell curve compared to the other seeds in it's
own stock.......

11/23/2004 11:59:14 AM

Knopp, Germany

Good stuff Steve and Cliff. Here is something else to think about.

"every seed out of a single pumpkin is different". that is a quote from Al Eaton from the 2002 Niagra Conference, please note the quote is not word for word as the video i have from the conference has bad audio. Jerry Rose and Nic Welty were there, it was Nic's presentation, perhaps he can comment. The point I am trying to make is that we are really dealing with a crap shoot here. not only do we need to worry about selfing, sibbing, or crossing, but we need to factor in that every seed from our selfing, sibbing or crossing is going to be different.

Gordon, answer to your question. I would prefer the 707 Toftness and the 846 Calai. Why, because I believe from the others you mentioned, more of the seeds from both of those pumpkins inherited the right genes.

Now, why did the 846 have so many seeds that produce so well? All of the 846 seeds are not winners, I will bet a dime to a dollar, that there are some HH's out there that had bad results with one.

I hope that some heavy hitters out there that are lurking will not limit there posts to only the negative ones. Here is a chance for you to help us newer growers out that have a true interest out hobby.

Please post.

Even if all you say is that our pursuit of greeater genetics is a crap shot.

owen

11/23/2004 12:40:13 PM

Utah

my 891 (735 x self) was 2% light (maybe because I measured around the big lump that was sticking out- it would have been 4 inches smaller and 2% heavy if I did it that way)
Joe's 894 was really heavy. I don't know about the 1179 off the top of my head.

So would which one of those would you rather plant ?

... anyway what I'd like to see the 1179 Kline
the 894 Pukos (I know there are just a few seeds) and my 891 all planted in several different growers patches in the same year.

11/23/2004 12:54:29 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

I don't want to over-step my bounds here or ruffle anyone's feathers as some of us may do here from time to time but, we need to keep in mind, in regards to "heavy hitters," not all "heavy hitters" hold the answers to questions on genetics. Growing big ones doesn't automatically equal genetic knowledge. Genetic researchers and people who have invested countless hours in genetic research and application might be the likes I would suggest paying the most attention to. Growing the seeds from the sibbs, selfs and crosses that these people have made, that's where the "heavy hitters" shine. And, since I am neither I will only say, in the simplest of terms, sibbs and selfs will lead to purifying and stabilizing a strain and crossing will mix them up. What do you want to do? BF

11/23/2004 12:56:59 PM

Utah

Owen-

I'd rather plant the 1141 Sundstrom and the 894 Pukos ... why ? because these seeds already exhibit the characteristics that that I am looking for from the 707 and 846 seeds, and they are selfed... even thought they aren't "proven" the genetic material is there .. and I think it is more "genetically pure" than the 846 or 707. Just my line of thinking...
gordon

11/23/2004 12:59:23 PM

Utah

... I should really read my posts over one before sending them ! lol !...
I'd rather plant the 1179 Kline or 894 Pukos or my 891 over the 846. so which one of those would I pick ... the one that was the "best" in terms of my priority of characteristics... weight, color, non split, etc...

11/23/2004 1:08:00 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Ah, I have to admit, my answer on whether I'd plant your 891
Gordon, or the actual 846... actually I'd like the 846 of
course, but I know I can't get that one. But I will plant your
891... Did you get the bubble pack? It was returned to me
once for another 12 cents and I re-sent.

But on the other hand, I don't consider that 891 a major
downgrade in any sense... the 735 is doing well, I think that
891 has great potential.

Adding to Owen's comments, and looking at the origination
of this thread, the 1446 genetics...... it's getting hard
to find a seed out there anymore that doesn't have a 723
or 846 or 723 X 846 in it's background! And I think to
contine to improve, we may need to think more in terms of
statistical selections within seed stocks... that is, we
would need to try to identify the best seeds within any
one particular seed stock and continue with those...

That is not easy to do........

11/23/2004 1:29:41 PM

Knopp, Germany

Wow, this is getting good. Posts like this are what we need.

Okay, Snake step over or not is not important, what is important is that we are after a common goal...my 2 cents.

Snake, I agree, the hh's do not hold all of the answers. So, that leads to the obvious, what do they hold. Better soil, weather, luck? And why should those of us that think we know plant genetics say things like "why is this such a hard concept to grasp?" Yet not have ever grown a pumpkin seed that we all yearn (or at least most) or want?

Gordon, I crossed(Genetic Gurus forbid me) the 805 into the 707 Toftness last year. I grew that seed this year, my 628 Olsen, and guess what, it was 24% heavy. Yeah it split, but my point is what are the odds that anyone will grow that seed this year? The seed is out there, i have sent it to at least 70 growers. It will go heavy (now if that ain't a expert opinion...lol), and has the genes to go orange (707 was orange). But what if Hester, Daletas, Eaton, Toftness, Ailts, Andrews, Kennedy, Beachy, Rose, Pukos, Whittier, need I say more and forgive me for not mentioning you, grew that 628 Olsen. I bet it would get hot real quick.

This post is not to get someone to grow my seeds. I want to know, from the HH's mouth why they plant and cross what they plant and cross. Is that so much to ask?

owen

11/23/2004 1:30:52 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Great questions!!!!!
We need to keep this type of discussion going all winter, if need be. We may learn a ton, or at least get a bunch of different view points. I like your enthusiasm here Owen.
I've been thinking of breeding(or purifying) a stable line of seed that will consistantly produce nice-shaped, thick walled, shiny orange fruits. I'm not sure which seeds I'd use to accomplish this, but have some ideas. I'm thinking, maybe it would be best to concentrate on one main breeding objective, than a number of them, especially when I'll likely grow no more than 4-5 plants next year.
A question I've had is, when is sibbing preferred over selfing, and vice versa? For instance, if I had two proven seeds, that I really wanted to purify the genetics of, would it be better to sibb, and get the genetics from two seeds together, or self both of them, and choose the seeds from the fruit with the best characteristics? If you did self both, you could cross these together, and sort of sibb them. Or you could sibb them both ways, and then cross these two together. There may be no way of knowing what is best, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Doug

11/23/2004 2:03:01 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I'm sorry AJG if this is getting a little off tangent from your initial question. If anyone else has ideas for AJG, please share them.

Doug

11/23/2004 2:07:57 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I'm doing a bit of selfing not for hybrid vigour later on but just so that I will know what the next generation will look like BEFORE it is grown then I concentrate on growing just that strain and saving the heaviest each year.Every year spent waiting for a seed to be proved is a year of genetic progress lost.

I would also like to know from the HH why they make their choices.(Please)

11/23/2004 2:11:47 PM

German Pumpkin,

My background in plant genetics is substantial. I do not just 'think' I know about plant genetics. I am also an accomplished grower on top of that.

Snake Oil nailed it when he stated that that the heavy hitters do not hold all the answers. Most will be the first to admit they dont know very much about genetics and pretty much just go with they have heard from other heavy hitters. Their success lies largely in the grooming of their soil and techniques and not so much in their seed selection.

A little bit of information goes a long way especially in this sport. It is unfortunate when that information is incorrect. I am not sure where the whole idea of criss-crossing this with that every year came about but it is without a doubt a detrimental approach to plant breeding. It accomplishes nothing. With a wealth of internet-based information at our fingertips, there is really no excuse for anyone not to learn the facts. I do not think I would be going too far out on a limb saying that this sport could have achieved the weights we are seeing today years ago if better breeding practices were observed.

Comparing seeds grown in vastly different climates is also largely a waste of time. If you are truly committed to growing the largest possible pumpkin, you should be developing your own seeds in your own patch. Nevermind what somebody 3000 miles away is growing. Al Eaton is a great example of someone who is achieveing great results concentrating on his own stock and selecting those pumpkins that have been standouts in his own particular environment.

Ignorance may be bliss but knowledge is power.

Blissfully powerful,
AGitated

11/23/2004 2:21:02 PM

Tom B

Indiana

Wow, arent we full of ourselves....

11/23/2004 2:57:46 PM

Knopp, Germany

Doug14, I also wish that someone would answer the question, and explain their answer.

AXC, thanks for the thoughtful input.

AGitated, I hope you didn't chase any proven HH's away by your post.

Yom, you response may have been well directed, but new growers, like my self suffer from not being understood, and or replied to. You had the opportunity to provide some experienced input to this very good thread, and you decided to respond to someone that is only putting us down.

May the force be with all of you.

Owen is over and out. Enough is enough. Drew, if only you had responded to this thread instead of the negative one.

11/23/2004 3:11:29 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Good afternoon Tom B,

Would you be kind enough to tell all those people that read these threads but don't post what you would cross the 1446 Eaton with.

Mark

11/23/2004 3:17:44 PM

hey you

Greencastle, PA

I'd cross it with a 951 Catellucci, and here's why...
the 1446 has been in bred now for 3 generations, so it's good genes should be very dominant.... the 951 is a 1260 Weir x 846 Calai... the 1260 is an 845 Bobier (same cross as the 723) x 846. So the 951 is a cross back, purifying the 846 genes in the strain. The 1260 is also the heaviest OTC producing seeds out there, and to get huge weights (i'm talking 1500+) heavy OTC is the way to go, because a fruit of that size can't be supported by thin walls.
Tom

11/23/2004 4:10:01 PM

hey you

Greencastle, PA

or maybe a 703 Smith*.... getting some more 935 in there with the potential to grow a huge green squash.

11/23/2004 4:10:57 PM

Utah

is 1179 Kline a 735 Pukos x self?
or 735 x 1016 Daletas ?
I think it is the latter.

11/23/2004 4:40:26 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Thru years of research and experience, I am of the belief it will be us "grunts" that forego the push each year to grow the hottest seed (or maybe just resolve ourselves to the fact that we can't acquire them[that's a whole 'nother thread) who will take the time (years) to sibb, self and then cross some proven seeds who will be responsible for the next big leaps in AG weights. We just can't keep diluting the crosses responsible for producing big pumpkins by simply crossing them with other hot seeds. Sure, it may seem to be a logical and successful course in the short term, but then what...now what? BF
PS I hope this doesn't create any "in-bred depression".

11/23/2004 4:47:29 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Owen,
Maybe Drew hasn't been to the board to check it out yet. This was only posted yesterday. Also, we can't expect heavy hitters(HH's) to have all the answers. Some may have opinions, but if they choose to keep it to themselves, for whatever reasons, that's their right. Maybe some HH's are reluctant to post here, because some people may take what they say as gospel. Or if they comment, someone may shoot them down, with their own theories. A lot of thoughts on breeding seem to be theory(I could be wrong).
I don't think Agitated's post was meant to be negative. I don't think it puts down HH's either(he may be overgeneralizing though. I think each HH has their own thoughts on breeding strategies) . Al Eaton is the ultimate HH IMO, and Agitated said positive things about his A.G. breeding.
I do like the concept of purifying strains, and then cross breeding them. It's not a new concept. I'd like to hear more on why it may be good strategy. Is it only a hybrid vigor affect? If it is, then would most selfed seeds have less weight potential, due to not having the hybrid vigor advantage?
I do see some HH's selfing and sibbing lately. You can look at Bobier, Pukos, and Carlson/Peterson as a few examples.
I'm also wondering if a cross such as (723 X 846) X another grower's (846 X 723) would be almost like sibbing? Maybe what Agitated is suggesting, would be a way to get A.G. weights to a whole new level.

Doug

11/23/2004 4:50:13 PM

Utah

Doug-

I would self both of them, and choose the seeds from the fruit with the best characteristics. but I'm no genetics breeding expert ... I know enough to know that there is a lot I don't know ... and "a little knowlegde in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing" ! LOL ! :)

11/23/2004 5:00:59 PM

Giant Veggies

Sask, Canada

Okay, I'll give.....

I would self the seed or better yet self two of the seeds then the next season cross the two selfed.

Here is chapter two of the book I am currently writing.

http://www.giantveggies.com/

Enjoy
TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

11/23/2004 5:21:30 PM

Thanks Doug,

You seem to understand the points I was trying to make. I certainly didnt think I appeared to be harpooning anyone.

Vegetable strains are often developed for specific climatic conditions. Do commercial corn growers in the north grow the same strain of corn that commercial growers in the south grow? Of course not. They grow strains they were developed in their conditions and for their conditions. They certainly dont develop these by cross-pollinating every generation with a different variety either. Wouldnt' that be kinda counter-productive? Yes, it would. The same principle applies to pumpkins. You only cross-pollinate when you have two stable, true breeding stains and you want to introduce the characteristics of one into the other. This is the basis of plant breeding.

I would however, like to address your notion of hybrid vigor. Would you know it if you saw it? What are your factors for determining its existence? How do you identify hybrid vigor in a plant that can put on two feet of vine a day and produce fruit of over 1400 pounds? Think about that...

11/23/2004 5:27:09 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I agree with Gordon,if you grow two plants and cross them you are saving seed from the average of the population,if you self them and plant from the best you have the top 50% of the population its not quite that simple in practice (they might be the same).

11/23/2004 5:40:31 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Regional adaptation Thank You AG (what's the real name?).

11/23/2004 6:19:20 PM

Ron Rahe (uncron1@hotmail.com)

Tremor,

No, not regional adaption. That's basically evolution and occurs slowly over many generations. I am simply talking about selection. Plant 10 seeds from your best pumpkin, treat them identically, and then select those that best display the characteristics you favor. Rinse and repeat. There are tons of genetic variations within a single pumpkin and some are going to be naturally better suited to your patch than others. No adaption there, just genetic roulette. By selecting the best of the best from each generation you will eventually and consistently produce exceptional specimens specifically cultured to excel under your conditions. This is a much better process than growing a bunch of different seeds every year from a bunch of different pumpkins from a bunch of different climates.

11/23/2004 6:37:54 PM

Cincinnati,OH

My first choice would be to self. But if I was to cross the 1446, I would use any of the following,
419 Pukos, 572 Andrews, 752 Blair, 802 Dill, 804 Plourde, 845 Nesbitt, 951 Castelucci, 1005 Mombert, 1038 Emmons, 1134 Holland, 1143 Colbert and 1178 Kuhn.

11/23/2004 6:56:58 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

AG,
I thought you were getting at regional adaptation as well. Thanks for clearing it up.
Your thoughts seem to make good sense. I'm wondering how many of us can, or would want to devote so much time and space to growing, as you say 10 plants of a pumpkin, to select for the best traits. Only the most devoted would do this. I suppose an easier way to do it(maybe not as effective), would be to look at selfed seeds, and look at the size and heavyness of the pumpkin grown in the cross, and do the same for the other parent. Then self these once or twice, and cross these two inbred lines. I don't know if that makes sense? Would 3 or 4 generations selfed be enough?
For instance, if you wanted to cross an inbred line of the 723 Bobier and and inbred line of the 846 Calai, this would be the way to go, as I don't think there are many of these seeds left.
I guess I really don't know how much, if any hybrid vigor comes into play in A.G.s. Or how to recognize it. If you look at the success of the 1097 Beachy, you can't attribute that to hybrid vigor, as the seeds in the cross are very closely related.
There's a lot of questions to be asked, I guess.

Doug

11/23/2004 7:10:58 PM

Pumpkinpatch[B�b]

Sistersville Wv

well, when i purchase the 1446 at the auction i didn't know i was going to have so much to think about over winter. keep the post coming the are great....bob

11/23/2004 7:43:49 PM

moondog

Indiana

If I only had room for 10 of my seeds. Space is the main limiting factor for most people, so if you can only grow one or two plants you want a "hot" seed.
Steve

11/23/2004 7:45:10 PM

Wichita, KS

I agree with Agitated. That is why I am growing 5 plants from the 659 Troy 03 seed next year. Let me explain...

* the Troy seed comes from an exceptionally beautiful pumpkin, a quility I would like to isolate genetically.
* The Troy seed was grown in California under hot, dry conditions, much like the conditions I grow in, even though I am further north.
* by selfing all the pumpkins grown from these plants, I will be able to control (as much as possible) the genetic quality of the seeds I plant in 2006, and I will, of course, select for 2006 the roundest, orangest, BIGGEST, of all the pumpkins I grow in 2005.
*I have space for 7 pumpkins, so I can do this sort of thing AND experiment with silly crosses on my other two plants if I want (and I may change my mind yet). This is a blessing not everybody has, and I am taking advantage of it! :-D

I don't see how this can be anything but the most logical thing to do, considering not all ags do well in my climate, or anybody elses.

As for abstract crosses resulting in vigor, I would say that you can expect that to happen in a crap shoot... every once in a while you will roll the best combination. That is a good example of natural selection, winning at craps, winning the lottery... If you want assured results, you need to work at it, take the time that is necessary, and be patient. Criss crossing will not assure the results you desire. Line breeding will always result in better results.

So, everybody, develope a 5 year breeding plan, and start selfing your plants! If you don't have the space to plant a bunch of seeds from a single pumpkin, get together with other growers in your region, and co-operate. Develope a plan that you can all participate in, and reap the benefits of your time and effort as a group. Isn't this one of the points of belonging to grower's associations?

11/23/2004 7:51:47 PM

That State Up North

Wow, too many questions to answer, quite the interesting post with a lot of ideas being tossed around.
1446 x 1432 just looks cool to me, and has the background to set up a moderate level of consistency.
why would I do such a thing?
to grow a 2000 pound pumpkin that doesn't split

Is selfing a good thing?
Yes
Will selfing produce consistent results?
Not in the seeds you are growing today
but you can have better odds if you pay attention to what you are doing.
There are very few consistent and "pure" lines available to the giant pumpkin breeder.
Why not self the 1446?
You may get some messy results (requiring more space to sort out than you have room for).
What is hybrid vigor? How do you know when to see it?
well first off, is this something we should worry about?
I will say no, it takes many generations, and many plants to select from in each generation as well as other factors to take place that we can not gaurantee in giant c. maxima
Your best bet is to follow some sort of pattern, that is how I plan my crosses (nothing big ever grown from my seed) and think of breeding for "traits" (including vigor) not the killer cross

11/23/2004 7:52:56 PM

That State Up North

Also, the key components when I choose a seed are its consistency, and its ultimate size potential via % heavy, non-split, good shape, and crazy animal growth character.
A general good pattern to work from in producing some consistent seeds is using the backcross (you can read my articles or the chapter I wrote in Don's book if you want to know more)
The genetics we work with today is a big mix, but we can key a few things that apear to produce success, the 723, 845 Bobier (935 Lloyd and 865 Mettler) and the 846 Calai
Al Eaton grew an "outlier" 723 Bobier in his 1236, the plant that fathered the 842. Outcrossing this good genetic with the 846 produced the 842, and added the traits necessary to produce the 1446. This seed was pollinated with the 1301, another good result from the 842, but crossed back to the 1236 Eaton (723x846 same exact parents as the 842). The result of this cross is still 50% 723 and 50% 846. Assuming much of this success results from the 935 Lloyd and 865 Mettler, it seems reasonable to introduce a stronger amount of those traits. Not only that, but the 1446 apears to have grown rather slow, well relatively speaking haha. Where to find some pure 935 Lloyd and 865 Mettler, that may have an increased amount of the "vigor" traits? The 1432 Carlson is a perfect match up. End result is:
75% (935 Lloyd and 865 Mettler)
25% 846 Calai

11/23/2004 7:53:15 PM

That State Up North

Seems we are selecting the traits we want, and purifying the line of success and adding a 25% new introduction gene set.
The actual result is much more complicated, but this is one simple way to look at it. Also, not going to get into the explanation of why the BC1 is more consistent than the F1xself, maybe later I will have more time, go read some of what I wrote, and bring in some questions, I will check in at least a couple times a week.
well, enough rambline of thoughts

Nic Welty
p.s. if you want to know something about heterosis, I got a tip from a geneticist that Dr. Birchler et all have some interesting results coming out

11/23/2004 7:53:28 PM

That State Up North

for thos analyzing things, and for the deeper comments
no I have no explanation for the 735 Pukos, total mystery
also 876.5 Loyd similarity to the 935 also is playing a roll here, but I didn't comment on that, but think of it in the best for these crosses, although it may be playing a much larger roll in some of these particular selections than my general observations give it credit.

If you plan on growing your own seed, and selection, better read up on population genetics and become familiar with statistics, experimental design, and have a good degree of familiarity with the homozygosity of any line you begin with, and start expanding your patch or hope you get very lucky

Nic Welty

11/23/2004 7:57:27 PM

MNPG(Al)

Offfffttaaaaa.

Thanks for the help everyone. HEY YOU I do have the 951 Castelluci, and i'll consider crossing that with the 1446.

I'm glad to see everyone adding there in put. I really don't know what to say about all this because theirs all this great input. But based on what i've read and what i know i believe that selfing and sibbing are very good for the genetics of a seed stock. heres a couple of points as to why its good.
#1 The Hybrid Vigor Theory
#2 it purifies the lines and in theory Helps inprove consistency.
#3 It brings out trates we like. And therfore when crossed with another seed stock it brings those trates into the mix.

In general it has many positve affects. If someone could list the positive effects in a list that would be very helpful.

AGtated, you seem to be very enlighted on the subject. Could you email me and give me some sort of idea what to do.

Any one else is free to email me because what i've seen is most of you are very Knoledgable.

11/23/2004 8:13:56 PM

Camera

Abbotsford, B.C

I just found this thread and have a few thoughts to add to it... I agree with you, Doug on the inbred selfing. I saw this somewhere else, and having thought about it, I think it is quite true; say you had a 935 Lloyd, and a 865 Mettler. You grow both of these seeds, and self them. From each of these selfed pick ten or so seeds, and grow all of them with identical care. Then cull all plants except the best few plants from each selfed pumpkin. Grow these to the end of the season. Pick the pumpkin that was the biggest, had best shape, thickest walls, nicest color, etc, from each of the two selfed lineages of the 935 Lloyd and 865 Mettler. Do this for three or four years, each year picking the same characteristics as the previous year. After four years, cross these two purified lineages. I think this would be the ideal way to create hybrid vigour, if you are only patient enough and have the space to do it. Also, this is a progressive way of breeding, unlike remakes of hot crosses (another whole topic). Now, the selfing wouldn't necessarily have to be from the 935 Lloyd and the 865 Mettler, but I think that you could have spectacular results if the above example was done. Just my two cents worth, can anyone qualify this? Oh, by the way, Mr. Little has a seed which is [(1092 Burke x sib) x sib]. The 1092 Burke, of course, is the 935 Lloyd x self. So we have here an even more purified strain of the 935 Lloyd. Now if this could be crossed with an {[(865 Mettler x self) x self] x self or sib}, then you would likely have quite a good cross. But some crossing is necessary, you just can't have always selfing, because eventually Atlantic Giant would become another breed like Big Max. They would get big, but they would eventually have a limit past which there genes would not let them grow. So, there you go. Just my two cents worth.

Cameron

11/23/2004 8:16:29 PM

That State Up North

Just noticed the best post of all from MrSprout

He has the killer key to making this all work

"co-operate. Develope a plan that you can all participate in"

there in lies the key to success, it won't come quick, or easily, but with time and hard work, that is how the most amazing results will be had.

Nic Welty

11/23/2004 8:16:57 PM

MNPG(Al)

I'm thinking of posting mounthly posts like this conserning the many areas of breeding pumpkins. Weather it be about a seed that might have potential, cloning, Cross polinating, self pollinating, and/or other critical parts of genetics that people need to know about. If your interested just post a Yes Or No here.

If you have any ideas as to what would be a good subject to talk about just email me. I tkink if we do this it will make us all more knoledgable in the area of genetics as a part of growing.

Thank You all. Even if we got off track a little.

11/23/2004 8:21:33 PM

Joe P.

Leicester, NY

Excellent information AGitated, Nic and others! If I grow the 1446, I would self it. The shape and color were not the best, but I would hope to carry on the traits of pure size and wall thickness through selfing. I’ve found there are quite a few growers, including HH’s that are totally against selfing and/or planting seeds that have been selfed. I'm not totally sure why, but there still is the mentality out there of crossing big with big to get bigger. There are times that seems to work okay and one could argue it has helped to get us where we are today. I wonder though if the consistencies we desire, would be lacking with such thinking. There are many good people putting most or all of their efforts into genetics alone and it won’t be too much longer and the results will be in. In the meantime, we’re all living during the best time in history to grow AG’s and it doesn’t get any better than that..Joe P.

11/23/2004 9:07:57 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Joe's right, it is almost uncanny how many old timers and or HH are flat against selfing/sibbing. They think that those who are doing this are wasting their time. Hence, my first post. BF

11/23/2004 10:21:16 PM

Sav

Leamington, Ont.

Team work, eh?
hmmm...come up with a breeding strategy, have a bunch of people grow specific seeds and perform specific crosses/ and or choose best shape,colour and size.
Eventually Bring it all together and when the desired genetics are met into a seed ... We all get to grow the final product.
Interesting!

11/23/2004 11:31:20 PM

RunnerKid

Spokane, WA

What about the 1145 Summers (975 Summers x 807 Summers)
The 975 Summers is (1038 Emmons[846 x 723] x 1005 Mombert [723 x 846])
The 807 Summers is the reverse cross of the 975 Summers
HHHHMMMMMMM...?
Adam

11/23/2004 11:50:52 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Nic,

What is your opinion on selfing vs. the backcrossing you
explain in Don's book III? Do you consider them essentially
the same, or is there more benefit to the backcrossing
strategy?

Thanks!

11/24/2004 12:35:07 AM

Wichita, KS

Thanks Nic! :)

11/24/2004 2:14:33 AM

Joze (Joe Ailts)

Deer Park, WI

Great thread guys. Makes me reconsider plans for 2005. I especialy like AGitated's idea regarding growing a population of the same seed and selecting the best. I do believe that everyone should be working on developing their own lines by following this plan and using Nic's F2 breeding strategy. Perhaps this needs to be laid out in a post here on BP to give others ideas how to implement it.

11/24/2004 8:50:15 AM

Edwards

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Wow. This thread just keeps going! I agree that if we are to truely advance giant pumpkin growing to the next level, we will need to participate in breeding plans that require cooperation between growers. And we need to consider all plant traits in these plans, not just fruit size. i.e. Group A breeds a seed selecting strictly on fruit wall thickness. Group B breeds a seed selecting on longest number of days of fruit growth. Group C selects for disease resistance. Group D for color. etc. etc. Then, after a few years of that, we start crossing the best of the best and the breeding plans start over from there.

The catch is that participants must be willing to accept less than maximal results for several years while pursuing the ultimate plan. It requires a 'big picture' perspective. Not just "I want the biggest pumpkin possible THIS year." (Tough to do for those of us with limited patch space.) But I bet if a knowledgeable, respected grower wanted to spearhead such an effort, it could be done. I don't know, perhaps it is being done among groups of growers already? If not, it should be...

11/24/2004 9:50:16 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

...and the "grunts", with calloused hands, will ascend to take their rightful place in the upper eschelon within the great imperial pumpkin community...
or, they'll just keep shoveling the %#@& everyone does...

11/24/2004 4:21:37 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

If there is such a thing as "the great imperial pumpkin community", they have very calloused hands or aren't very imperical. LOL

We already have a growers cooperative. If we choose to grow a certain line, it isn't hard to find others who are also working that same line. It shouldn't be too hard to find a "good pollinator" to swap seeds with.

The only alternative I see is to grow out 10 of each fruits progeny evey year to observe each & every trait. This just isn't practical for most of us.

11/24/2004 5:05:42 PM

Tom B

Indiana

If you think 10 is enough of a line, you are greatly mistaken. That is what Welty was refering to by population genetics. However 10 is better than 1 so its all relative. I tend to grow in blocks of 5, 10, or 20. The point of growing 5 is to hopefully find the upper quartile (hopefully). About 75% the time 5 dont get me what I am after, and when i plant 10 I still am not happy because expectations are higher. Then when I plant just 1 of something I find a few super freaks....go figure

I chose to skimp on the 567.5 Mombert remake this year, and not only did I not get what I was after from either side, but I didnt even get the remake cross done.

Tom

11/24/2004 6:39:50 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

10 isn't enough when all the seeds are what is needed. But 10 increases the odds in the grower's favor a whole lot better than 1.

11/24/2004 6:43:37 PM

Wichita, KS

Somewhere this last year I read a post by somebody who knows how to calculate statistics. If I remember correctly, they said that planting 3-5% of the seeds from a single pumpkin (randomly selected from a population of say, 300 seeds) should give you an accurate representation of what the rest of the seeds would do with a +/-3% margin of error (e.g., 76% of the plants are heat resistant, +/- 3%).

If you believed any of the political polls that came out this last election, you will know what I mean. Pollsters would call about 1000 people asking which candidate they would vote for, and calculate a statistical prediction of what the millions of other voters would do on election day. The same applies here... a fruit like the 697.5 Pearce only produced 50 seeds. 5% of its seeds would be 2.5, so plant three and you will get a decent representation of what all the seeds would do.

So, by planting 9 seeds from a fruit that produced 300 seeds, you are planting 3%, and the results should be satisfying enough to plan for the next season.

If growers cooperatives persued this tactic for a few years, they might even be able to develope patentable strains of their own, and reap the benefits in terms of dollars. This is an attainable goal.

11/24/2004 8:57:51 PM

Wichita, KS

Above you read, "we’re all living during the best time in history to grow AG’s and it doesn’t get any better than that..Joe P." Cool quote! :-D I agree that we are living during the best time in pumpkin history, but I think it CAN get better... I think now is the best time because the opportunity is remarkable; it needs only to be seized by focused groups of people with clear, attainable goals, and an organized plan with which to reach those goals. From what I have read on this sight over the past year, I would be willing to bet that the folks in PA have the best small-group "chemistry" to facilitate such a thing, so far. Who else? NH, Great Lakes, OR/WA, maybe? The relationships already exist. People just have to decide whether or not they want to stand behind a common cause.

I personally would love to see it happen. I love pumpkins (for reasons I honestly do not understand LOL!) and I would love to see the 1 ton mark be breached with the use of a seed strain that has *consistent* results. And wouldn't it be cool to see a list of our names next to a world record stat in the Guiness Book?

Howard Dill said he grows "for the glory," just like most of us if we are going to be honest. I think glory is sweeter when it is shared, because when you are 80 years old, you can sip tea on the porch with your good friends and say, "remember when WE broke the world record back in 2010?"

OK. I'll step off the soap box now...

11/24/2004 8:58:05 PM

hoppy

berkshire M.A.

This is what i have been looking at for the 1446.
1432,1373,1260,1027,1370,1170,1127 maybe my 360 who knows ,but this is just me.
bill

11/24/2004 10:41:44 PM

Eugene, OR

Mr. Sprout, I'm the guilty party. I'm afraid to post on the board these days to keep from getting sucked into the craziness myself....but here's a copy and paste of the post I made last year. Hope it makes sense and if anyone sees any errors, please feel free to correct me! :-)

11/25/2004 12:33:53 AM

Eugene, OR

When breeding for specific traits, there is no need to grow every last seed. We can get an accurate representation of the all the seeds as a whole by planting only a small percentage of them. For example, a certain pumpkin produces 300 seeds. We can plant as few as 15 of the 300 and still get a 95% accurate representation of all 300 seeds. Obviously, we're making a couple of assumptions when saying you only need to grow 15 seeds to obtain a 95 percent confidence interval. The first and biggest assumption is the percentage of seeds in the pumpkin that possess the traits you're after. Without acutally growing every last seed, it's a shot in the dark. Half of the seeds in the pumpkin could contain the traits you're after or as little as 10 percent of the seeds could contain the trait you want. This assumption greatly effects the number of seeds you need to plant in order to get an accurate representation of all the seeds. The second assumption is that the data is accurately represented by a normal curve. I ran the numbers and used a probability of 0.3 or 30%....meaning that we're assuming 30 percent of the seeds in the pumpkin will exhibit the trait you're after. I'd say that's a pretty fair and conservative estimate. The higher the probability, the fewer seeds you have to grow.

To figure out the number of seeds you need to plant in order to establish a 95 percent confidence interval, you have to first find the standard deviation. Sorry if no one wants to see how the numbers work out, but I think it's
important.

cont

11/25/2004 12:34:12 AM

Eugene, OR

std. dev. = [np(1-p)]^1/2 where n = the total number of seeds and p is the percentage of seeds that posses the trait you want.

= [(300)(0.3)(1-0.3)]^1/2 = 7.94

Using the std. dev. of all the seeds we just found you can calculate the std dev. for the based on only 15 samples. This calculation will give us a number that represents how confident we are that the 15 seeds we planted accurately
represent the 300 seeds in the pumpkin.

For 15 seeds.....

std. dev. for the sample = (std. dev. of the 300 seeds)/(n^1/2)

= 7.94/(15^1/2) = 2.05

So, using 15 seeds we've covered a little more than 2 standard deviations. This means that by planting only 15 seeds of the 300, we're representing the 300 seeds with an accuracy of 95 percent. By planting only 15 seeds, you're still getting a fairly accurate representation of all the seeds (95% accuracy to be exact) but you're doing a whole lot less work compared to planting every last seed in the pumpkin.

11/25/2004 12:34:30 AM

Eugene, OR

Sorry if that's a tad dry, but it helps to show your work!

If we're able to plant only a few seeds from a pumpkin without sacrificing accuracy, it would definitely help speed up the progress of the breeding method you're describing as well as make the process possible for those of us who don't have the time, desire, money, and space to grow hundreds of pumpkins each year.

11/25/2004 12:35:02 AM

Eugene, OR

</End copy and paste>

Brian

11/25/2004 12:35:36 AM

moondog

Indiana

So in the second year wouldnt the probability of the trait your looking for be in a greater number of seeds, lowering the number you would need to plant??

11/25/2004 9:59:38 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Steve brings up a valid question I think. How long must a "line" demonstrate consistent trait expression (good or bad), before we can say it is "set"? Do any AG's ever hold consistent enough to start suggesting they've reached "cultivar" status? Does such a seed-line exist today?

This I think is where we need to someday arrive. Several cultivar lines that have reached a level of stability that growers can make logical & sound decisions. Not indvidual seeds from a pumpkin. But rather a set of progeny that conituously exhibit some continuity.

Perhaps the "Lloyd line" is stable enough to call "cultivar"?

11/25/2004 12:35:02 PM

Utah

Brain-

My 891 pumpkin (735 x self) had 674 seeds ! I thought more seeds was better... so I would have more to give out... but not so in terms of sampling... LOL !

11/25/2004 1:56:14 PM

Utah

opps Brian ! not Brain... although he seems to have a pretty good one. :)

11/25/2004 1:57:59 PM

Camera

Abbotsford, B.C

The 935 Lloyd progeny generally seems to produce fairly similiar pumpkins from it's progeny, from what I have seen, usually the same shape and white. Am I right? I don't know though, I think the 935 Lloyd would have to be selfed a bit more to become a cultivar, though. Maybe the 1092 Burke hits the mark a bit closer?

Cameron

11/25/2004 9:00:54 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Brian,

Right on with the statistics. This is what I've been saying,
but I've been too lazy to get out the textbook and spell it
out. Thanks!

11/26/2004 1:01:28 AM