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Ohio

Here is a neat article on NOT to till your garden. Whats everyone think about this? I think Docgipe will like this site.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/rec/og/2100/

Brooks

1/27/2005 8:57:56 PM

Buffalo, MN (Billsbigpumpkins@hotmail.com)

Good Article, I've known that for may years but it is very hard not to till or plow. I try to run through it fast and avoid any addition tilling. All my weeding is done with a hoe or propane burner.

1/27/2005 9:13:49 PM

Puyallup, WA

Soils high in sand do not need tilling as do those high in clay. Pumpkin roots need oxygen and other gasses. Wet clay soils smother the roots. Rototilling serves two major functions. First, it breaks up the cover crop and the added compost materials so they begin to decompose faster. Secondly, it allows air to penetrate the root zone and allows the roots to penetrate the soil. Why do you think that growers walk on boards in their patch? It has been well demonstrated that compacted soil does not produce good growth of plant or pumpkin.

1/28/2005 12:45:37 AM

Ohio

Stan, I knew that about the boards and walking on your patch soil like you said but this is what this guy says, Kinda makes sense.
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Every time the soil is tilled, surface-layer organisms are buried, threads of beneficial fungi are broken and earthworm tunnels are destroyed. Steve Diver, an agriculture specialist with Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA), says plowing can bury plant debris and topsoil up to 14 inches deep - where oxygen levels are too low for decomposition.

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1/28/2005 1:16:33 AM

Ohio

The buried debris then acts as a physical barrier to the movement of water upward and downward. Tilling or plowing also introduces excess oxygen that causes organic matter to decay too fast, and tilling causes plants to give off more carbon dioxide, contributing to global climate change.

"Even if you cultivate only 2 to 3 inches deep," says Weil, "more damage is done than good." Worm channels and root paths that facilitate water absorption are destroyed, and soil clumps or aggregates are broken up, leaving little air space in the top layer. Then, raindrops pound on the soil particles, pushing them even closer together, creating an impenetrable, crusty surface.

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Im still tilling my patch, I got a new tiller that needs broken In,lol

Brooks

1/28/2005 1:21:46 AM

Puyallup, WA

I read the article, Brooks. I've tried it both ways...not tilling....250#...tilled....1000#+. I know of no "heavy hitter" that does not rototill their patch. As far as something tilled too deep to decompose, I doubt it. My tiller goes down about 12". I've dug pits 3' deep and filled them with partially decomposed compost. Those pits stayed warm even in the winter!

1/28/2005 1:30:15 AM

Ottawa, Ohio

I would have to disagree. I don't know of many plows that bury at 14". The ones that go that deep don't usually bury much just rip. As for the no tilling I have read about it too... I think it would work for a small garden that you can mulch heavily to reduce soil compaction. It would also need to have a high organic content. With out it my patch would be close to concrete after the spring rains. I researched this type of cultivation for the purpose of high output gardening with the benifit of weed control due to mulching. But I found that my 2 acre garden was just to big and the act of mulching was worse than cultivating with the tiller. However, I have not seen any adverse effects of plowing, disking, or tilling. I think we would all benifit more from having multiple patches and alternating between patches with cover crops.

1/28/2005 2:06:06 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

I'm with you Stan. I only till my garden once per year for the reasons you stated. Would like to hear what the Doc has to say about this. I believe that he too, tills his patch. Over tilling is not a good practice but certain soils are in need of a till once in a while to loosen things up and mix in your cover crop and amendments.

Good post/Glenn

1/28/2005 11:03:59 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Some thoughts to ponder with regard to tilling.

>> With the amount of manure we all apply we are better off tilling (in moderation). The loss of Nitrogen is actually to our advantage especially if fresher manure is used later than ideal.

>> We grow an annual vining crop. Low or no-till is fine with perennial & bush type crops.

>> No or low-till is designed to cost less with fewer inputs & less labor. The anticipated loss in crop yield is balanced by the lowered input cost & might favor the high-land to low crop-demand ratio farmer.

1/28/2005 12:04:22 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

If we were raising vegetable for eating I would agree with the no till process. Instead we throw leaves and manure in at mass quanities most people shake their heads at. We tweak and incorporate things to a optimal level. With out tilling you would just have a pile of leaves and manure that would take a while to break down. If you had the space you could accomplish a no till pumpkin patch by making a huge pile and letting nature run its course. Alot of the growers sort of do this by alternating patches. Cover crop one year pumpkins the next.

1/28/2005 12:11:23 PM

Key West, FL

Jack LaRue did not rototill his patch last year...

I'm going to try and not till my patch at home

1/28/2005 1:50:46 PM

Key West, FL

What I mean by not till, is not with a rototiller. Only by hand. I think it keeps compaction down. But you have to turn the soil over.

1/28/2005 1:52:39 PM

Western NY

i do everything by hand whenever possible. i can get a lot deeper, and have good control on actually "turning over" the soil.

but, a rototiller does a lot quicker work on leaves.

1/28/2005 2:36:47 PM

Warwood

Folks,
Todd Skinner averages about 900+ lbs.grew one 1109 in 2000 and a 1029 this year. He tills 5-7 times before he plants. He likes the soil fine. I grew one 1019 in 03 and tilled twice and that's how I kept the patch weeded. I have to agree with Stan. I don't worry about that. Don

1/28/2005 8:11:46 PM

Deer Park WA

We had a new 7000 sq ft patch of basically solid clay starting out at our new farm in 03 I added 10 yards of composted dairy manure and about another 10 yards of compost, disced and tilled. Not the greatest season 834# but the difference in drainage and tilth was amazing! In 04 I added 40 yards of dairy manure and about another 20 yards of compost ripped it in at 24" with a jacked 2 bottom plow, disced and tilled at the end of the season the tilth was almost completly gone, only 823#. This year I spread about 10 yards of raw compost over the patch and will take Jack La Rue's advice and only turn over the top few inches in the spring. Should have our soil test back in a few days. I agree no till has its merits but not at if you have to add 40 yards of compost a year to get a good soil base started.

1/28/2005 10:53:19 PM

Montoursville, PA

I think anyone commenting or changing to align with the article discussed should most likely have read the entire article very carefully and more than once. I found no problem with the article. It is likely one of the better that has ever been put together.

I have discussed the principles with two of the principals who helped get that article up with the author. I use the products of one of the principals. There have been moments I doubted my own practices over the years. However most, of my gardening, has been using the principles stated in this article for some fifty years.

If the principles of the total article can be grasp and put into practice I do not believe anyone would have reason to challenge the successes that are being realized. I have heard of no-one here, on this site, that is talking anywhere close, to using the total principles, of the discussed article.

My thoughts and feelings, successes and failures are of no one's concern here. There are lots of related articles and truely organic places, to seek and study, for personal help.

My backyard is open, to any serious investigation and discussion. The two people who visited and knocked heads with me last summer are welcome as is anyone....anytime.

1/29/2005 5:41:51 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

1 - I didn't till the plot where my 886 was grown. It was more of an after thought placement for a back up seedling. Mostly clay soil here.

2 - I'm not tilling my raised beds. The tiller doesn't go down deep enough, 2'. Double digging by hand takes time but provides a good work out as well.

1/30/2005 11:44:03 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

I was in the past unhappy because I could not get deep enough with the tiller I had, no more than 6 inches at best. Now I think that was a good thing. Besides, pumpkin roots don't go down all that deep anyway. I really don't want to disturb the living things in my soil any more than I have to. On the other hand I am putting all kinds of organic materials in my garden at the end of the season which need to be incorporated into the soil. Also my plant roots will need oxygen and the garden has to be able to drain. I have decided that the best thing for me to do is add my compost etc in the fall and till it in but not deeply. In the spring I go into the garden and simply break up the soil with a broadfork that goes down about 14 inches. I then give it a shallow once over with the tiller. The broadfork is essentially just pushed down into the growund and then rocked back and forth to open passages. No soil is turned over or disturbed as would be the case with deep tilling. This may be right or it may be wrong but it is the compromise I have decided upon and it works for me. Broadforks are expensive and a great one is sold by Johnny's Seeds. Check it out in their catalog.

2/9/2005 10:44:54 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I think folks worry too much about *harming* the living creatures, or *disturbing* the balance of the soil. Mother Nature is incredibly resilient, so you're not likely to dramatically alter the kharma of your soil by mixing/amending/aerating it up every so often.

2/10/2005 12:17:12 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Heat & extremes of moisture kill & repel Earthworms & Bacteria more than rotary tillers & fertilizers. But as in most things, moderation is key.

2/10/2005 8:20:45 AM

Montoursville, PA

The key here with the differences of opinion are based on one persons patch. No two are exactly the same.

It's kinda interesting how we all tend to relate to our experiences. My point is that the article pretty clearly indicated excellent soil and soil health first. When on the build one may need the turning and deep tilling to move burried solids to the top where most conversion takes place.

Once a patch enjoys ten or more inches of excellent conditions and management we have a different view point. We are seeing reports, of patches with ten to twenty percent humus or organic material. At this point one might consider the value of less or even no till.

The article also pointed out a good number, of other management techniques, supporting no till. In other words I doubt that many, of us see, or use the whole package, of supporting practices. I do think that some with high humus or organic material might be ready for modest tilling and just maybe, to the point, where no till might be considered successfully. The article, in question here, was a good one but darnit guys it is about a whole bunch more than just no till.

Forty or more years ago a lady by the name of Ruth Stout wrote the No Work Garden Book. She was eighty years old and doing no till with a permanent mulch in the New England States somewhere. It is a great read if you can find it.

2/10/2005 8:41:51 PM