Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

I have a base saturation of Ca of 77% and Mg 19%. I want to lower the Mg compared to the Ca. Will the addition of cow manure do this, or will the ratio stay roughly the same?

Also, is a reading of 400ppm of Mg going to be to high? Will it affect the absorption of Ca at these levels?

10/29/2007 8:32:22 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Jordan, what is your soil CEC? Higher cec usually requires higher Ca to Mg ratios. Ca Tie up potential is possible in your patch.

Manure has a NPK ratio of 3-2-1

10/29/2007 9:07:52 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

My CEC in one patch is 18 and 22 in the other. How much Mg in manure? and will the 400+ppm of Mg interfere with Ca uptake regardless of Ca/Mg ratio?

10/29/2007 10:00:03 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Um, am I missing something here? Your base saturations are Ca 77 and Mg 19. Would you mind explaining to me how Mg could interfere with Ca uptake at this point? What difference does it make what the soil levels are? You could have 800 ppm Mg in the soil, but if Ca is still holding 77% of the CEC sites what makes the difference?

10/30/2007 8:28:54 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Thats what I am not clear on. If you say that only the percentages matter, then I have no issue. I was under the impression that at some level (whether in balance or not) too much Mg can hinder Ca uptake.

10/30/2007 9:24:42 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I am of the opinion that soils with high CEC values require higher ratios. I don't believe at 4 to 1 you are getting the maximum ca potential out of that soil.

The prevaling view is exactly as Monty states. There are in fact several studies that suggest this. However I hold theory that higher CEC soils usually elevated by OM do require a higher ratio to protect against spliiting. It really has nothing to do with crop yield.

Calcium ions (Ca2+) and magnesium (Mg2+) cations (positively charged ions) attracted to the negative exchange sites on clays and organic matter (cation exchange complex of the soil). In the summer as OM is consumed by the soils living critters and N is released in competing forms of Ions it is Calcium which quickly becomes lacking in the soil. Therefore on such soils it is possible to that a higher ratio would be more beneficial.

This one of the first causes Of BES that I Indentified in "A Trip Down The Calcium Highway"

"However the ammonium ions compete with calcium and significantly restrict its uptake. AGP plants have evolved for years in environments that normally contained less than 5% OM. Plenty of nitrogen is usually available for plant uptake in most of today’s patches containing levels in excess of 10% or more. High patch concentrations of OM and the sudden influx of ammonium nitrates by release of decaying beneficial micro organisms accelerate the release of competing cations of ammonium. This condition begins to hasten green growth and reduce Ca uptake as the soil warms".

10/31/2007 8:22:52 AM

Ontario, Canada.

You will find only scant reference in the science journals to the information I've posted above. These studies usually are undertaken in soils which contain near background levels of OM (3 to 5%). They do not reflect the condition growers often place themselves in when adding reams of OM to soils. They are focused primarily on crop yield per acre and are often reduced to useless information when growing the AGP.

Put another way Ca and Mg are positive ions that are bound to clay and OM particles by electrostatic charge. They are easily dislodged and are exchangeable in the soil solution.
As ammonium (NH4+) increases within the soil during the early summer the problem begins to develop. For example, AGP's as we know are a Ca sensitive crop, they increase in size with excessive nitrogen fertilization but the sugar content and sugar purity are lower, thus the total wall thickness and cell turgor (the pressure of the cell contents against the cell wall) are reduced in these conditions and BES often occurs.

In many grain and vegetable crops, excessive vegetative growth produces weak stalks and reduces fruit quality. Is this what we see in the often fast growing top growth plant commonly found in today's patches? I believe the answer is Yes. We all know these types of plants. Tall leaf stems with big broad leaves and poor fruit set. They are a symptom of a problem below. A problem which does not generally affect yeild as we are acustomed too. However this symptom contributes to BES! Cure the excess N and address the Ca uptake problem and you may just have the answer! This is the reason I like to see higher ratios on soils such as Jordans.

10/31/2007 9:53:32 AM

southwest MO

Thanks for your thoughts Russ... More is not always better when it comes to OM.
Do you think foliar application of Ca can be effective? Lots of biologicaly complexed Ca supplements out there that claim so...

10/31/2007 10:37:42 AM

southwest MO

I should say organically complexed suplements. Im wondering about the amount of N that comes in these. They may still contribute to much to top growth... Or do we want the top growth as long as the Ca is in place? Anyone?

10/31/2007 10:48:15 AM

Follansbee, Wv

I see what you are saying Russ, but simply elevating the Ca content of the soil will not increase the Ca:Mg ratio. I firmly believe that CEC sites are dependent on the type of soil. In other words, different types of soil with the same CEC will hold different base saturations, given equal levels of Ca and Mg. It's because of this that no two patches are alike, and never can be.

10/31/2007 8:37:27 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Oh, and Boy genius, it has been proven in the lab over and over again that foliar applications of Ca are NOT effective because Ca does not travel far in the plant tissue.

10/31/2007 9:48:32 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Yes, I agree with Monty. Foliar Ca applications are not worth the time nor effort.

11/1/2007 6:06:16 PM

southwest MO

How about humic acid?? Ben seeing a few things that it claims to make Ca more plant availible... It seems to be getting more and more use in these circles thats for sure. Ive also seen claims that the fruit gets all the Ca its going to get in the first 4 to 6 weeks after pollenation. (Not for pumpkins specifically but vegtables in general.)?? I guess the AG breaks the rule again the way they are grown with a giant food factory and root system for only ONE sink.

11/1/2007 8:16:40 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

I haven't heard that, but I will be using humic acid for sure next year.

11/1/2007 8:29:06 PM

Follansbee, Wv

I haven't done enough research into HA to offer an opinion one way or the other. Scientific data from reliable sources is difficult to find in any quantity. What I find mostly are claims made by companies selling it. I don't dump anything into my garden without first researching it thoroughly and understanding completely what it is, what it does, where it comes from, how much is needed and how it affects the rest of the soil. While HA may work for some people, simply jumping on a band wagon is one very easy way to do serious harm to the soil.

11/2/2007 6:28:11 AM

Kathyt

maine USA

Excellent explanation Russ, I'll be printing out and saving this one, thanks Kathy

11/2/2007 11:24:29 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Humic Acid works because it raises the soil CEC and its buffer capacity or its resistance to change the soils pH level. Raising the CEC helps to hold more cations of Calcium in the soil hence bigger split proof pumpkins.

11/2/2007 1:05:44 PM

Follansbee, Wv

So, now we are getting somewhere. HA raises the CEC. How much does it raise the CEC in proportion to the amount added? Are there studies to show this? Since we are talking about raising the CEC, at what point does CEC no longer matter? Surely there is a point when there are simply more available nutrients on the CEC sites than the plant is capable of taking in. Plant root surface area is limited so, therefore, is nutrient uptake. You say raising the CEC helps to hold more cations of Ca in the soil hence bigger "split proof" pumpkins. What happens when the soil holds more Ca than the plant is capable of taking in? Does it benefit the fruit? Does the era of split pumpkins end? To the other point of HA increasing the soils buffer capacity "or it's resistance to change the soils pH level." How is this an issue? As we all know pH changes are not an overnight thing; surely not fast enough to cause splitting. And I wonder how much HA does increase the buffer capacity? Is there proven data to back that?

My whole point here is this: Jordan doesn't know anything about HA but is going to dump it into his patch blindly, without understanding why. Many other growers probably will too. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I think people should understand what they are doing to their soil, before they do it. If increased CEC is the major benefit, a top end CEC limit should be known. Would it make sense for a grower with a 28 CEC to add HA? How do we know? We don't. That's why I won't jump on the band wagon. Remember a few years ago when calcium towel wraps were all the rage? I'll bet there are still people out there who swear by it.

11/2/2007 7:32:39 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Monty, Cation exchange capacity is an important term to understand how humic acid impacts soil. Understanding the points listed from above well help all Concerned learn the Rest of Paul Harvey's Story!

The plants roots at one time were limited but with the addition of Mycorrhisa and the organic trend we now now have miles and miles of networks down below.

How much does it raise the CEC in proportion to the amount added? The answer depends on the quality of the HA product used. Some contain lesser percentage amounts of HA than others. Commercial humic acid products are too concentrated to apply to plants straight from the bag or bottle. Always follow the recommended application amounts.

What happens when the soil holds more Ca than the plant is capable of taking in? Answer > The soil already holds more than it is capable of taking in.

Does the era of split pumpkins end? A > Maybe yes under most conditions in well balanced organic patches using mycorrhisa, bacteria soups and teas. I believe the riddle maybe extremely very close to being solved.

soils buffer capacity How is this an issue? The volume of ca held in cation sites is much larger. I believe we may find someday that it maybe more beneficial to have alkaline soil to grow even larger pumpkins than todays monsters. Ca is better released at higher pH levels. These are only my theories though. Much more study and debate is needed.

I do not wish for you to be antagonistic either. Yes there are studies. As always, we all must do our own patch due-diligence. You must research all of these aspects individually that is why I usually say may or refer to some guidance as IMHO.

As for Jordan I had the opportunity to meet him at Port Elgin this past fall and I am confident in his abilities. He is a very well educated young man who one day will reach HH status here on BP.com! I said it first...

11/2/2007 8:22:38 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I should really clarify my first statement a the beginning of this board. I used the term tie up potential.

Wrong terminology!

I should now refer to this as Calcium displacement probability. It is the outcome of growing a competitive Atlantic Giant Pumpkin and or Show King Squash in High Organic and or Nitrogen juiced conditions. It is a very unique symptomatic side affect when growing the AGP.

11/2/2007 8:36:48 PM

Ontario, Canada.

IMHO using HA to boost Ca availability combined with many other modern techniques can reduce the incidience of BES.

11/2/2007 8:39:09 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Let me say, that while my views may appear to be antagonistic, I do not wish them to be. I am merely stating my opinion. I believe it is important for people to make an educated decision when it comes to working their soil.

11/2/2007 9:18:33 PM

Follansbee, Wv

I also am not slighting Jordans intelligence, but I stand by what I said. If he does understand the implications of adding HA to his soil, and can explain why he is doing it, let him. I am all ears. I am very interested in HA, but I need empirical evidence before I dump money into something.

So, let's get on with this discussion. It's very interesting to me.

I have tried Myco and noticed no visible improvements. I have also never seen a single post directing me to a pic of massively enlarged root systems. I do know that Myco "expands" the root systems of smaller plants by colonizing on the root surfaces in a symbiotic relationship. However, I would love to see a well established Myco colony on a mature AG root system. As yet, I have seen none. Do I think Myco works? Absolutely, on smaller plants with smaller, slower growing root systems. I have seen it, so I believe it. However, I have not seen it on AG's. Until I see otherwise, I must believe the AG root system grows faster than the Myco can colonize it. Add to that the massive amounts of fungicides and other chemicals dumped on these plants and it's not hard to doubt the effectiveness of Myco. As far as the "organic trend" we have taken, you know as well as I do that organic matter in the soil is not an extension of the root mass.

11/2/2007 9:19:03 PM

Follansbee, Wv

If the amount HA raises the CEC is dependent on the quality of the product there must be some correlation. Do you have a particular HA product that states how much the CEC is increased? Can you direct me to a study that indicates a correlation between amount of %HA added to increase in CEC?

My question: What happens when the soil holds more Ca than the plant is capable of taking in? Your Answer > "The soil already holds more than it is capable of taking in."

Then why would increasing the Ca content of the soil help at all? If the soil already contains an excess of Ca, why make even more available?

I do agree that most splits can be avoided by "well balanced organic patches". I am still not convinced that Myco is beneficial. I also agree that foliar feeding with a bacterial based tea is beneficial. I have seen that for myself.

The soil buffer capacity is still not an issue as you describe it. As we both know, pH change is a long term event. Surely your not going to tell me that Ca is held in higher quantities in soils with a higher buffer index.

Russ, I'm not trying to be an ass. I just want people to wake up and be involved in their soil instead of just listening to what other people did and climbing onto their shoulders without understanding what the heck they are doing.

11/2/2007 9:19:12 PM

Follansbee, Wv

From: http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_humic.htm

ABSTRACT Humic acid (HA) is a relatively stable product of organic matter decomposition and thus accumulates in environmental systems. Humic acid might benefit plant growth by chelating unavailable nutrients and buffering pH. We examined the effect of HA on growth and micronutrient uptake in wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) grown hydroponically. Four root-zone treatments were compared: (i) 25 muM synthetic chelate N-(4-hydroxyethyl)ethylenediaminetriacetic acid (C10H18N2O7) (HEDTA at 0.25 mM C); (ii) 25 muM synthetic chelate with 4-morpholineethanesulfonic acid (C6H13N4S) (MES at 5 mM C) pH buffer; (iii) HA at I mM C without synthetic chelate or buffer; and (iv) no synthetic chelate or buffer. Ample inorganic Fe (35 muM Fe3+ ) was supplied in all treatments. There was no statistically significant difference in total biomass or seed yield among treatments, but HA was effective at ameliorating the leaf interveinal chlorosis that occurred during early growth of the nonchelated treatment. Leaf-tissue Cu and Zn concentrations were lower in the HEDTA treatment relative to no chelate (NC), indicating HEDTA strongly complexed these nutrients, thus reducing their free ion activities and hence, bioavailability. Humic acid did not complex Zn as strongly and chemical equilibrium modeling supported these results. Titration tests indicated that HA was not an effective pH buffer at I mM C, and higher levels resulted in HA-Ca and HA-Mg flocculation in the nutrient solution.

11/2/2007 9:53:12 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Note the last line: "Titration tests indicated that HA was not an effective pH buffer at I mM C, and higher levels resulted in HA-Ca and HA-Mg flocculation in the nutrient solution." Flocculation of Ca would result in less Ca being available, not more.

11/2/2007 9:57:07 PM

StL Kenny

Wood River, IL (kennyw_49@yahoo.com)

Guys, this discussion is fascinating, I'll have to read it a half a dozen times before it starts to sink in. Keep it coming, very interesting. Kenny

11/3/2007 10:27:22 AM

Bohica (Tom)

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I feel the true benefit of Humic is this:
This is from an article I found:

A substantial fraction of the mass of the humic acids is in carboxylic acid functional groups, which endow these molecules with the ability to chelate positively charged multivalent ions (Mg++, Ca++, Fe++, most other"trace elements" of value to plants, as well as other ions that have no positive biological role, such as Cd++ and Pb++.) This chelation of ions is probably the most important role of huic acids with respect to living systems. By chelating the ions, they faciliate the uptake of these ionsby several mechanisms, one of which is prevneting their precipitation, another seems to be a direct and positive influence on their bioavailablity.

Many organisms can expliot dissolved organics to some degree if they are present, and humic acids may be taken up by this mechanism. Another paradoxical effect of humic acids is the detoxification of heavy metals.

11/3/2007 11:31:36 AM

cojoe

Colorado

russ and monty great discussion.russ is going with humic acid benefit hypothesis as it relates to calcium uptake. Monty is going with the not so fast-prove it side of the topic. we need both to have a discussion. My point is to not lose site of the genetics as it pertains to BES. I dare say that the best way to minimize BES(and get bigger pumpkins)is to breed the pumpkins to not have that trait. If mama was a splitter and daddy was a splitter then its likely junior blows up sometime from day 35 -50.

11/3/2007 1:27:22 PM

StL Kenny

Wood River, IL (kennyw_49@yahoo.com)

What is BES. thanks

11/3/2007 1:59:35 PM

cojoe

Colorado

Blossum End splits. Its believed that Bes and sag lines are caused(in part) by plants inability to supply enough calcium during fruit development.

11/3/2007 2:27:54 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Well, I missed the last part of this until now. Lots of good points being made. I got my info from Wikipedia (so did Tom B), but many parallels. Most importantly:

Humic substances may chelate multivalent cations such as Mg2+, Ca2+, and Fe2+. By chelating the ions, they increase the availability of these cations to organisms, including plants.

Increased availability is necessary until the max...then IF more than the max hurts, its not good...I cant say for sure that too much is bad...it says too much doens't help, but if it doesn't hurt, what better way to ensure you have enough.

and...

It is well known that humic substances are the most stable fraction of organic matter is soils and can persist for tens, hundreds or even thousands of years (Stevenson, 1994).

Most strive for OM...what about OM that persists longer than most?!?!

Toms post also says "but HA was effective at ameliorating the leaf interveinal chlorosis that occurred during early growth of the nonchelated treatment." ameliorate essentially means to improve, and interveinal chlorosis is a yellowing of the leaves between the veins with the veins remaining green. In plants with strap-like leaves such as the daylily this results in a striped effect. While there are several possible causes, this symptom frequently indicates a nutritional imbalance. Improves the nutritional imbalance.....sounds good.

11/3/2007 3:21:25 PM

Bohica (Tom)

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Most strive for OM...what about OM that persists longer than most?!?!
Om will always be changing, Om will always be breaking down unles your soil is dead.

11/3/2007 6:06:34 PM

Bohica (Tom)

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

got my info from Wikipedia ?
I dont use it as it is free content source that has not been verified.

11/3/2007 6:08:11 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Humates and humic acids are not fertilizers, they do not replace fertilizers, they enhance them. By carring the nutrients with them they are natural chelating agents. The benefits were identified very far back in time,

From the soil science Society of America Journal vol.40,#6 nov.Dec.1976. clearly showed a specific amount of humic acids that provided optimum plant growth.

and

Abstract: Soil Science and Plant Nutrition, 2004 (Vol. 50) (No. 7) 1089-1095

"Stimulatory effects of humic substances (HS) on plant growth have been observed and widely documented. Studies have often shown positive effects on seed germination, root initiation and total plant biomass."

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/google/abstract.asp?AcNo=20053021881

11/3/2007 7:29:59 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Monty, I laughed really hard when I found this site

http://www.montysplantfood.com.au/www/53/1001229/displayarticle/1001585.html

Montys Plant Food

They sell Humic acis products. ROFLMAO

11/3/2007 7:42:19 PM

Ontario, Canada.

HUMIC SUBSTANCES STIMULATE PLANT GROWTH AND NUTRIENT ACCUMULATION IN GRAPEVINE ROOTSTOCKS

http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=549_14

11/3/2007 7:42:48 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Yeah, OM will always be changing, but...did you read the part about "most stable fraction of organic matter is soils". It means that its the longest lasting for of what we want. So the changes are slower, and our OM is easier to keep consistent.

As for the Wiki, my apologies. However, your whole paragraph is on wiki in the exact words you put in your post. The only other place I found this is http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/humic.html and it does not reference any journals, in fact, they are just emails, so in this case Wiki is more reliable. If you have the article though, I would be interested in reading it in its entirety.

Anyhow, it doesnt really matter. The info is the same. From a research point of view, peer review is one of the most important aspects of information verification. Wiki undergoes much peer review. This page is in fact loaded with references from scientific journals. All of the wiki info (in the humic acid case) comes directly from those journals.

11/3/2007 9:48:16 PM

Follansbee, Wv

LMAO Russ! That's not my site...the .au gives it away!

I have managed to do a bit of research on HA. As I expected, HA is present in all decomposing material. It's a by-product of the decomposition process. That leads me to believe that adequate applications of compost will also contain HA in adequate levels.

Now, let's discuss HA as a form of OM. OM or Organic Matter is measured in a soil test as a percentage of OM in the sample. So how in the heck can 1 or 2 pounds per 1000 square feet have any positive effect on the actual OM content of the soil? That would mean 2 pounds of HA is equal to several hundred pounds of organic compost. The math just does not work. OM is measured as a percentage of the soil. A few pounds will NOT cause a measureable increase in OM.

11/3/2007 10:15:51 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Haven't you ever heard of quality not quantity?! LOL.

11/3/2007 10:44:31 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

But really, you have a point.

11/3/2007 10:44:48 PM

UnkaDan

A very interesting thread in many ways,,,gets one to thinking over the long and dreaded winter

My research last year involved HA and after many hours of google results I talked to a couple of noted agronomists. Both indicated that HA would trigger our soils IF we were working in new dirt with newly applied OM. Older soils with higher and older OM content already have an established humus content. Few labs test for this and fewer still will give you a baseline for acceptable levels for good interaction in your soil.

That being said,,I'm thinking the trend to using HA pretty much started with growers in "new" dirt, so of course it appears to prove positive in the end results. If you are in dirt that already has established humus content you won't see any big changes occuring. (soil types vary and this plays a key role always)

Get a humus test and talk to an agonomist,,time and money well spent IMO...there is a distinct difference between OM and humus btw.

11/4/2007 12:17:12 AM

LIpumpkin

Long Island,New York

Go Dan go !

11/4/2007 7:41:58 AM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Good stuff. 3/4 of my patch is brand new, so thats another reason to use it.

11/4/2007 9:17:04 AM

southwest MO

Thanks for the musings folks... I look forward to more of these in the coming months. Ive become very bored with the cheer leading... (but thats just me)
For a while now I've fretted over the chemical analysis of my soil... Or should I say compost because the stuff I'm growing in tests out more like compost than soil. To share a few numbers these where results form July.2006: In PPM Mehlich 3 extract.
P 1,875
Ca 5,270
Mg 1,640
K 2,565
Also NO3 325 and %OM 25.6
Samples where collected,composited, extracted, and analyzed by me.(Now if I just had a chest to pin my brownie button on! lol) Need less to say Ive backed off the organic imputs... I've been focusing on the physical parameters of my soil. Thats the only way to fix the muck pile I've created. I tested again a few weeks ago and #'s are looking alot better. Sooooooo do you think I'm a canidate for HA? I think not but I will probablly throw a couple sacks on anyway!! (just kidding)I guess my point here is as the immortal penn pollinator put it... "Become a student of your soil." It is unique to your patch. I have no business even thinking about Ca:Mg levels or other imputs until my physical parameters are met and I've developed some consistancy in my soil.

11/4/2007 10:30:56 AM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Wow, those numbers are crazy. 25.6 OM, I don't know what to say. Theres always a silver lining right...umm, lets see...well you don't have to add anything for a couple years. LOL.

11/4/2007 12:38:28 PM

christrules

Midwest

Ok. Another opinion. A root can easily strip off the cations from HA for immediate use. Then, the 'exchange site' vacated by the cation will be filled with another cation like Ca or Mg. The root which is in proximity will continue to strip off cations from the same exchange site. So, if HA increases cation sites then there are more cations for a root to strip off and your soil can 'hold' more cations and replace cations that have been stripped off. It also means that once a cation is absorbed by a root, another cation is more readily available to fill the empty spot vacated by the absorbed cation. Because of the increase in fertility, roots will more readily take up nutrients at their natural capacity. We know how good AG roots must be at nutrient uptake. So IMHO, I would add HA at times when I believe the AG plant wants to 'take off'. I can only see a positive outcome in using HA even in small quantities.
Greg

11/6/2007 2:29:27 PM