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Cedar Lake, IN.

How do I raise Potassium amd Calcium without raising Magnesium? Can it be done with organic's? pH is 7.4.

11/14/2009 10:57:42 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Calcium can be raised without touching Magnesium by using gypsum, or certian AG limes, with a PH of 7.4 you want to use Gypsum, it wont alter your PH. I recommend the Liquid Gypsum, no heavy bags to carry around, does a great job.
In my opinion the best way to raise Potassium is by using Potassium Sulfate 0-0-50.

11/14/2009 11:53:52 AM

South East

gypsum for Ca and sulfate of potash for K

11/14/2009 11:56:36 AM

South East

oops to late :)

11/14/2009 11:57:57 AM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Thanks Tom, Tina and Frank. I have a problem with my soil as I've started with heavy clay. I've added top soil and organic matter. Still my soil texture is bad poor. I believe it's do to my Mg saturation percentage is at 30% any comments?

11/14/2009 2:44:20 PM

South East

Would need to see entire soiltest. Changing one element has an effect on the others to. If both Pottasium and Ca are low then Mg wil show high in saturation %.

11/14/2009 3:23:05 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Tina & Frank on grower diaries is a picture of the soil test from A&L Labs. Since the test I've added 3in to 4in. of compost/cow manure,30 pounds of sulfer and 500 lbs. of gypsum. The patch is 3600 sq.ft. Thank you.

11/14/2009 3:58:59 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

it was 8in of compost and sulfur was misspelled.

11/14/2009 4:47:14 PM

Colorado Springs, CO

500 # of gypsum ? ! !
8" of compost over 3600 sq.ft. is ~90 (cu) yds of compost.
What do you feel is this source for excessive Mg ?

I've read some other of your postings on soil issues. Slow but steady wins the race, assures a progressive plan for soil quality improvement, and avoids the chances for over-reacting and thus any possibilities for over-amending.

You should consider adding some humate, dry molasses, and kelp meal. In spring time consider taking several planned soil tests from a number of locations within this 3600 sf area shortly after the surface has thawed adequately, and then repeat those tests from the SAME locations 6 to 8 weeks later and study those reports for similarities.

Soil science requires smart-science, not mad-science. One reads of many folks in this pumpkin forum taking radical steps to "doctor" their soils, and sometimes then confounding the entire process by exuberant applications of chemicals, pesticides and herbicides, etc. Feed the soil, feed the biology in that soil, and then avoid any activity that destroys and kills that biology ! It is biology that brings garden success.....not chemistry.

11/22/2009 11:31:18 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Tomato Man, your right, doing the math it was 4in. of manure/compost. The soil test was taken before additions of OM. Not to get into a long story but I had two separate soil test done. one where I grow the 2 AG's and one where I didn't apply any fertilizers of any kind. I have concluded the source is my soil. I'm on a heavy clay soil which is giving me drainage problems. It seems the high Mg needs to be replaced by Ca According to soil experts the high Mg above 30% will cause drainage problems in heavy clay soil. so it seems my Ca and K will need to be raised in order to lower Mg percentages (15% - 20%). The two acres I have has the same problem I've added 1200 Ibs of gysum to the rest of my yard based on this information. I agree with what your saying, biology in the soil is my goal. I have sent soil samples out to study my soil biology. Waiting for results. This was my first year, all of this is new to me. I wish I had an expert that could help me along but that's not going to happen. So with that, trial and err here I come. And Thanks, any info will be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everyone all the comments have helped me out. keep'em coming...

11/23/2009 9:37:38 AM

Colorado Springs, CO

"It seems the high Mg needs to be replaced by Ca According to soil experts the high Mg above 30% will cause drainage problems in heavy clay soil. so it seems my Ca and K will need to be raised in order to lower Mg percentages (15% - 20%)."
- - - - - -
This is the process that appears extreme. No doubt your clays are uniquely different than any clays I might find out this way. Your's are perhaps river-stream depositional, and our's here are literally the breakdown of feldspars from the massive granite outcroppings in the foothills and mountains that washed eastward. There are many different clay minerals and I do understand how certain elements can be dominant in those mineral atoms and their bonds.
I'm still wrestling with how "Mg causes your drainage problems". Drainage is fundamentally a "physical" attribute, and you MUST work on that first to have a happy patch. Get some chunky, aged and composted wood(y) material and till that stuff in as deep as you can get it. Do NOT add any sand or you're just making adobe concrete, so to speak. Stop the heavy juggling act of "replacing Mg". If you over-do your balance of added elements it could take YEARS to correct. Organic matter content, active biology and a balanced pH will do more to correct your elemental imbalances than any quantity of (other) stuff you could add.

11/23/2009 10:02:48 AM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Now we're getting above my head. The paper I read said: too many Mg ions attach to clay and not enought Ca ions will act as a bonding agent. With that it holds the water in place filling all the pores leaving no room for oxgyen, creating an anarobic condition. Drainage is a big problem here. This seems to be the answer to my condition. I don't want to put in a drainage system, but I will if all else fails. I thought about woody materials from a physical stand point, I believe that would help. I read somewhere that wasn't a good thing. You seem to have a deep knowledge on this subject. Aged wood chips ( 6 to 10 years old) I can get. The soil is going to stay too wet to work from mid Oct. to maybe first of June. However, what's done is done, I can't change what happen yesterday but I can change tomorrow if I know what to do. Thanks again, I'm listening.

11/23/2009 11:15:20 AM

Colorado Springs, CO

Find another site for establishing a garden, perhaps on higher ground and with some gentle slope to it. Dig/core some test holes first and study the existing soil profile, and color-texture-percolation issues with each hole and plot that info on a sketch "map". Do all this now before the ground freezes.

Mid-October to early-June of "too much water retained in ground" is a serious confrontation for any farmer. You might need to make some major decisions, now that we are learning more about the total environment in which you are planting.

11/23/2009 1:22:40 PM

Colorado Springs, CO

P.S. - The "crystal" structure of all clay minerals is flat, sheet-like, and so think of them as a deck of cards. There is ideally little space in that lattice for H2O molecules to reside, if such clays are in-situ and undisturbed. That is why you have to "bust up" those clays, often mechanically, and make the effort to defeat re-compaction by adding the chunky organic material to invite worms, etc., and let them maintain the porosity that you desire. I have serious doubts about any such liquid product of surface-applied substance that claims to "bust" clays. Tiller baldes, pitchfork tines amd brow-sweat are the dominant activities that will break/bust clay.

.....or else, you find another place to locate the patch !

11/23/2009 1:28:55 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

This explains a number of things to me, It makes alot of sense. With the little bit of knownledge I have and the problems I'm seeing I do believe chunky organic material will address my other problems as well. I don't know how to thank you other than saying thank you. THANK YOU!!!

11/23/2009 1:52:39 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

And my whole yard is that way. It's in the best spot that I have. I'll see how this works. If needed I will put in a drain system for the 2011 season. I plan on growing six AG'S in 2010. Don't get me wrong I don't live in a swamp, I just want to get as close to perfection as possible.

11/23/2009 2:06:18 PM

Colorado Springs, CO

Do you have dolomitic limestone in some of the surface outcroppings of rock near your property. Dolomite may well have been highly eroded by glacial activity 10 to 12,000 years ago, and those powdery deposits of "clays" could be concentrated on your property. Ask a local college's geology department, or county Extension office. Dolomite is CaMg(CO3)2, and thus an explained source for higher residual Mg in those soil tests. I know the interior of the country has many carbonate rocks. Just trying to put your puzzle pieces together.

11/23/2009 5:22:48 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

I hope your not in a hurry for those answers, cause it's going to take some time. I don't know what dolomitic limestone looks like. I haven't seen any rocks sticking out of the ground. However, the color of the topsoil when dried is an off white. I had a friend dig a trench and he mention I had three different types of clay one of them being the hardest clay there is. At 4ft. down you could see the three different veins(or levels). I was raise out in the country and I'm 56 years old and never seen soil like this. In the summer it's as hard as a rock and in the spring watch where you step you'll sink three inches.

11/23/2009 6:52:38 PM

Colorado Springs, CO

Dolomites are usually darker grays and they are often much harder than normal limestone. One's rock hammer makes a clearer "ping" when striking purer dolomite....but, enough on that subject.

Have your friend dig some more trench holes. I would not worry too much about what is below those upper-most 18 to 24 inches, but clearly you have "issues" up there too. An "off-white" color of those surface soils does not bode well for having much natural hunus or organic content. Darker soil colors are generally seen as being preferred. What has been growing on this surface in recent years....before your efforts to develop a pumpkin patch there ?

Amend, observe, and be very diligent about NOT over-watering by your own hand as you monitor what the skies deliver. Good luck.

11/24/2009 12:06:11 AM

Cedar Lake, IN.

When we moved in 6 years ago it was weeds ( crab grass, broad leaf, etc.) and when I cut the yard the air was filled with dust. It's not that way any more. In the garden I've added 60 yards of black topsoil, 20 yards of maple leaves last fall, 40 yards of composted horse manure
last fall. This fall I added 40 to 50 yards of diary cow manure/compost. Now I'm working on a compost pile with diary cow manure and maple leaves for next year. And now woody materials all for next fall. THANKS AGAIN,

11/24/2009 9:02:45 AM

be careful of "woody" materials, great N robber for years to come

11/24/2009 6:36:46 PM

Colorado Springs, CO

Correct, if one tills in freshly-chipped green wood !

That's why it is suggested that one have already aged and composted those woody materials (above-ground)....before tilling them into the garden soil. You want those chips to be much darker shades of brown/black and easily breakable when pressed by one's fingernails.

11/25/2009 10:10:15 PM