From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Clayton, Ohio, USA

Any growers grow big >1300# in natural silt loam?

2/21/2010 11:23:57 AM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I know that Dave Sunlin's creek bottom soil is a similar silt loam to mine. His pumpkin was 1200# when the flood washed it away on August 27. The biggest I have gotten on my silt loam is 841 in the super wet cool year of 2008. My son had one near 1000# a couple years ago but it split a week before weighoff. I don't think the soil is the limiting factor for us. It is the cool himid micro-climate and limited sunlight due to the deep wooded valley. And lack of $$ to put into the patch.

2/27/2010 8:45:54 AM

Clayton, Ohio, USA

Thanks Iowegian. So....what I'm getting from this post is that every 1300+ was grown in sandly loam or maybe unknown

2/27/2010 11:18:27 AM

Bethlehem CT

Hi Jeff, I am willing to bet a lot of the midwest growers are growing in a silt loam of some sort, also Pennsylvania and New York. I agree with you though, if I had to choose between a sandy loam or a silt loam I would take the sandy. (because it's easier to add water to your soil than to get it out of your soil.)

2/28/2010 8:19:35 AM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

With sandy soil, it is harder to keep your OPM up. That is because the larger particle size of the sand leaves more pore space and more oxygen in the soil. More oxygen speeds up the bacteria that turn your OM into CO2.

Having too much water in the soil is a problem too. With me it has caused root rot problems. But my drainage ditches, fungicieds and beneficial bacteria have seemed to solve that problem. And I don't have to water as much.

A lot of southern growers will have soils higher in clay content, which brings in more challenges. They have more clay because their soils are much older and have had time for the soil particles to break down more. Up here in the glaciated areas of North America, our soils are much younger and have more sands and silts in them.

2/28/2010 10:27:25 AM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Subsoil also plays a big role in the amount of water in your soil. In my county, sandy soil over limestone or deep wind deposited sands are usually excessively drained and very hard to grow much of anything in. Some sands in glacial washout areas that have glacial till close to the surface or are in depressions can be very wet, almost swampy. We also have some sandy loam soils that are pretty decent too.

A lot of Iowa was covered with wind deposited silts or loess. They blew in after the glaciers retreated and before vegetation bacame well established. It can range from over 200' thick in the west, just a couple feet in some areas and non existent or eroded away in other areas. Generally the loess soils (silt loam) that developed under tall grass prairie vegetation are the best soils for growing just about anything.

Log onto websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov and you can find your soil type and lots of information on it. This includes botht he top soil subsoil and parent materials, drainage class and many other properties. You can zoom in on a US map and get right down to an aerial photo showing your patch. You just need to remember that when your soils were mapped, the smallest area delineated was 2 acres or larger, and you can have some variations within a map unit.

2/28/2010 10:42:56 AM

Clayton, Ohio, USA

Thanks again Iowegian. I've logged on to the websoil survey and discovered my new patch is a silt loam. I'm not the soil expert that you are. I'm not sure what some of the terminology means when it comes to subsoil,drainage class, etc.
I tested my new patch at A&L and it's 32% sand, 57% silt, 11% clay. Would it be beneficial to till in some sand? Or would the amount needed and the depth that it would need to go make that a futile waste of time?

2/28/2010 11:27:26 AM

Clayton, Ohio, USA

Iowegian:
Here's what I pulled from the soil survey website. This is my dirt.

XeA—Xenia silt loam, 0 to 2 percent slopes

Map Unit Setting
Elevation: 650 to 1,020 feet
Mean annual precipitation: 28 to 45 inches
Mean annual air temperature: 48 to 55 degrees F
Frost-free period: 130 to 180 days
Map Unit Composition
Xenia and similar soils: 85 percent
Minor components: 15 percent
Description of Xenia
Setting
Landform: Flats on till plains
Landform position (two-dimensional): Summit
Parent material: Loess and the underlying till
Properties and qualities
Slope: 0 to 2 percent
Depth to restrictive feature: 40 to 60 inches to dense material
Drainage class: Moderately well drained
Capacity of the most limiting layer to transmit water
(Ksat): Moderately low to moderately high (0.06 to 0.20 in/hr)
Depth to water table: About 18 to 30 inches
Frequency of flooding: None
Frequency of ponding: None
Calcium carbonate, maximum content: 40 percent
Available water capacity: High (about 9.3 inches)
Interpretive groups
Land capability (nonirrigated): 1
Typical profile
0 to 9 inches: Silt loam
9 to 38 inches: Silty clay loam
38 to 48 inches: Clay loam

2/28/2010 12:25:58 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Capability Class 1 is as good as you can get. Loess is good soil for growing just about anything. Moderately well drained is good too. It is flat so no erosion worries. The glacial till layer is what limits the sub surface drainage. Till is a mix of heavy clay, sand, gravel and sometimes boulders. Water won't penetrate it and neither will roots.

That 18 to 30" water table can be a problem, especially in wet weather and early season. It could be even higher at times. But in dry weather it can be a good thing. Some of the things you can do to eliminate wetness problems are: divert excess runoff from roofs and pavement away from the patch. Perforated drainage tile can be installed IF you can find a suitable outlet and can get decent gravity flow. You will want that tile at least 3' deep. Drainage ditches may help, if you can get water to flow out. You could make raised beds to get your plants higher above the till layer. Raising that soil surface and using good soil and lots of organic matter may be about the best you can do.

If you are in a residential area, the soil may have been greatly disturbed during construction. That could throw things way off, depending on how much topsoil the builders saved.

In my silt loam over wet sandy clay, I am building drainage ditches and using the material I dig out to raise the patches. I am also hauling in good topsoil for areas around my patch and trying to increase the organic matter.

2/28/2010 11:39:30 PM

Clayton, Ohio, USA

Thanks again Iowegian. I kinda think the deep soil profile is very important and the limiting factor for many growers. All the growing skill in the world can't overcome a poor subsoil. It's interesting to plot on Web Soil Survey where some of the monsters have been grown and see how deep, sandy, and well drained the soil and subsoil is in these patches. You can actually pull up addresses Greene, RI or Chillicothe, Ohio and zoom the satelite photos of the patches and find out what type of soil is there. It's pretty cool and a great learning tool. I think I even saw some fat guy bent over pulling weeds when I zoomed in on one patch! :)

3/2/2010 5:06:25 PM