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Fresno, CA

I went to see a showing of a really interesting documentary tonight called "Symphony of the Soil" at CSU Fresno. It wasn't a totally complete film yet. There was a lot to think about in the film about soil conservation, soil biology, organic farming versus conventional farming and other topics. Thing that hit me though in terms of pumpkin growing here was the quotes from farmers who switched from conventional to organic farming and their organic matter went from 0.5% to 6% and from 4% to 15%. After the movie was over there was an expert panel of farmers and soil scientists. The farmers have very big operations. Some of them had a mixture of conventional and organic operations in their ownership. Three of them said they have not been able to get their organic matter much better than 1% after twenty years of trying to improve it both on the organic and conventional farms, largely due to climate and soil conditions here in the hot San Joaquin Valley. That blew me away. I was figuring I need to get my organic matter to at least 10% to grow a truly big pumpkin. That's because my soil is overwhelmingly sandy which means I can't retain moisture or nutrients. So the way I can fix that is increasing my organic matter. Now I'm worried. What is it about our climate that makes it hard to get OM up there. I am guessing though that this gets back to a scale issue. It must be that the farmers can't economically get the OM that high, but for a hobby farmer they just have to buy more composted manure, etc.. But I am surprised with cover crops, green manure, limited composting etc.. they can't improve much on 1%. I'm hoping someone with more experience can shed some light on this for me.

3/24/2011 1:41:39 AM

Fresno, CA

I you're interested in seeing the film when it comes out (looks like you can check out some related shorts online), here is the web page..
http://www.symphonyofthesoil.com/request%20screening.html

3/24/2011 2:09:51 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

While compost and other organic ammendments remain critical to growing giants, the traditional target of 8-12% OM no longer applies.

Consider that the 1810.5 world record was grown with 3.5% OM. The 1544 and all of Chad's other huge pumpkins were grown with OM around 7%.

3/24/2011 2:27:20 PM

Linden, Mi.,

I grew my first 800 + pumpkin, in sandy soil hardly any
organic matter.

3/24/2011 3:19:52 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Sorta thinkin that Craig F, used to have available a program of daily, and I mean every day...feeding for AG's...lot's of it was foliar spray!!! Soil type would not make as much of a difference if yer feedin yer plant by foliar sprays!!! Tallcorn, how did you feed yer plant? Peace, Wayne

3/24/2011 5:44:02 PM

Linden, Mi.,

Wayne,
That was back in 2003, did't know much then (then?)
It was lots of water at stump, feed 20/20/20 at stump
Trimed side vines at 12 foot.
The 854 was grown off a second dairy, out the back of
the stump on a tertiary

3/24/2011 7:54:01 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Hey Tallcorn, if you don't mind me asking, what do you grow your side vines to now?

3/24/2011 9:13:40 PM

Bethlehem CT

A couple ideas on organic matter.
1. The organic farms burn up a lot of organic matter because they are cultivating the soil more often to control weeds. ( they can't use herbicides in an organic operation.) The more a soil gets worked the quicker the O.M gets used up.
2. In warm climates the organic matter naturally gets eaten faster by all the life in the soil. Things really slow down in the cooler climates. A gardener in California is going to have to work a lot harder to keep organic matter in their soil than one in Alaska. Also sandy soils like yours will burn up O.M. Sandy soils are very porous and well oxygenated.( Good for biological life that eats O.M.)
It seems that lately most growers are more concerned with keeping there O.M on the low side. Go back a few years and growers were throwing as much compost and manure as they could get onto there soil. So for our purposes (growing A.G's) it may not be a bad thing to have organic matter that gets consumed quickly. When it is consumed fully all the nutrients will become available to the pumpkin plants we are growing. One thing I learned in soil science It is always better to have to add, than to try and get something out of a soil.

3/24/2011 10:39:37 PM

Linden, Mi.,

Smallmouth_Luke
I still grow the Christmas tree, growing side out 8 to 10 feet.
I still feel growing the tertiary out the back off the first side vine is good, they seem to be strong. But thats just the way I feel.
like the rest of us, this is still a learning process

3/25/2011 9:47:43 AM

Upa Creek, Mo

Thanks Tallcorn, always curious to hear different methods as I am just getting started.

3/25/2011 10:34:39 AM

Fresno, CA

Thanks for all the input everyone. I hadn't heard that Orangeneck about WR 1810 being grown w/ 3.5% OM in soil. Must get expensive to rely on daily foliar sprays. I'm worried sometimes when I'm doing a lot of foliar spraying (Neptunes, dawn soap for aphids, CO2) I'm going to wear out the leaves. Tallcorn when you fed 20/20/20 at the stump was that like a side dressing? Thanks for the explanation on OM and sandy soils big moon.

3/27/2011 1:17:53 AM

Linden, Mi.,

I make a water dam around the stump, about 3 foot across, I water the trunk this way, the 20/20/20 is water soluble,I mix it in gl jugs and dump it in the water dam.

3/27/2011 9:54:48 AM

Fresno, CA

tallcorn do you still use the 202020 around the stump or you do something different now?

3/29/2011 4:08:17 PM

Linden, Mi.,

Endless,
Yes I do, I also, been spraying, fish, seaweed,calcium,blossom booster,all mixed with amino acid Bio-Activator. Water at stump and drip lines.

3/29/2011 5:59:27 PM

Fresno, Ca

E T, I am also in Fresno my OM was 13.4% this fall and I have since added another load of compost. The thing I noticed the high OM level does is act as a "shock abosorber" What I mean by that is it seems to allow you to dump higher rates of fertilizer on it and it cushions the plant. Probably from the high carbon content in the soil? I work in agriculture and one of the tomato farmers I work with does a lot of conservation tillage, adds ammendments, and plants a winter wheat cover crop. Next time I see/talk with him I'll ask him where his OM levels are.

4/7/2011 8:48:44 PM

Fresno, Ca

Talked with my tomato farmer and his OM level is 3-5% depending on the field.

4/13/2011 5:06:44 PM

Fresno, CA

Don, thanks for the information on your patch and with the tomato farmer. I'm going have mine tested again soon.

5/2/2011 12:12:41 AM