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Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

What is the high end safe level of nitrogen in the soil?

Thanks,

Matt

10/26/2004 10:13:00 PM

Puyallup, WA

That is a very difficult question to answer. Some folk say that if your leaves a bloated and blue-green, then you have too much nitrogen. High nitrogen readings do not necessarily produce large AG pumpkins. In fact, the New Hampshire growers insist that it causes the plant to put all its energy into producing leaves instead of big pumpkins. What is the highest reading I have heard of in a AG patch....1200!!!!!!!!! Mine runs between 25-33 ppm and those are considered "High" by A&L Labs.

10/28/2004 12:48:40 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Would this be abnormal then?

Soil test results of July 12, 2004
Patch #1...in parts per million (ppm)

pH= 6.82
N= 7323
P= 2557
K= 2880
Calcium= 15,245
Magnesium= 2491
Sulphur= 2812
Iron= 6109
Manganese= 374
Zinc= 83.6
Copper= 47.5
Boron= 12.8
Sodium= 725
Soluble salts= 165
Carbon:Nitrogen ratio= 16:73

Patch #2

pH= 6.63
N= 3080
P= 1241
K= 1113
Calcium= 8772
Magnesium= 1422
Sulphur= 1441
Iron= 5497
Manganese= 170
Zinc= 42.2
Copper= 23.9
Boron= 5.66
Sodium= 319
Soluble salts= 118
C:N= 15:96
Carbon= 49,149

10/28/2004 1:40:24 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

I'd also worry that that much Nitrogen could produce a pathogen outbreak...Fusaria and the like love a target rich enviroment....C/N ratio looks reversed...LOL...Rutgers never gives me a Nitrogen reading so I really don't know what is Overkill.

10/28/2004 8:54:41 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Nitrogen doesn't burn. It's the most abundant element on Earth. The air in our lungs is 78% Nitrogen. If it burned, we'd all be dead.

But to manufacture Nitrogen containing fertilizers requires that we capture some of that Nitrogen in a salt form that plants can use & we can handle.

It's those salts (chlorides) that give all fertilizers their "SALT INDEX".

We too often on this website confuse soil contained chemcial elements with the stuff we can buy in a bag or watch Mother create in a compost pile.

Soil Nitrogen can still be too high. But the only accurate way to test soil Nitrogen is in the field with costly gas recovery equipment. Lab tested Nitrogen is a theoretical best guess based on percent organic matter.

Perhaps it's better to quote a lab that uses Mehlich-1 extraction method since I have trouble explaining the process. LOL

continued

10/28/2004 9:00:43 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

____Begin quote__________________

It should be noted that recommendations for N are not based on soil testing. The ESTL does not currently test for N in soil due to lack of a meaningful soil test method through which N availability to meet plant needs can be predicted. The recommendations for N shown on the soil test report form are instead based on research studies that measured the response of the indicated crop to various levels of applied N fertilizers. The results of these studies are then used to determine the correct amount of N needed for optimum crop response. If part of the soil N requirements will be met through nutrient release from organic sources such as crop residue or organic soil amendments, the N fertilizer recommendation should be lowered appropriately by estimating the N availability of the amendment material.
__________End quote_________________________________

Stan's dead on with respect to Nitrogen & AGs. Once our soils are dialed, we really needn't apply an enire pound of N in a growing season & even that might be too much if the soil is healthy & the right weather paterns are present.

The perfect season can go all to heck in the days following an electrical thunderstorm. Why? Because Mother sends atmospheric Nitrogen falling all over the place at rates giher tyhan sane AG growers would ever apply.

Luck, we might say, has a heavier hand than we do.

10/28/2004 9:00:58 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Too much coffee.

Why? Because Mother sends atmocpheric Nitrogen falling all over the place at rates higher than any sane AG grower would ever apply.

Look at the North American weather paterns this summer. Then look where the big stuff failed. Look also for the unlikely pockets that did produce big stuff.

We'd like to give & take credit for our seed selection prowess & stellar growing skills when everything lines up right.

Look at Jerry's patch. Look at Hillsboro County NH. Then look at Rhode Island & Iowa. What happened?

10/28/2004 9:07:11 AM

Deer Park WA

Jeesh Steve. I think Matt was just wongdering how much nitrogen it takes before you influence the plants metabolic processes. Matt, a friend of mine "Mooch" once told me that a fella shouldn't use more than a pound and a half of nitrogen per plant, per season. Of course he is refering to his idea of soil and those like you would see in Heaven.

10/28/2004 7:24:54 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Oh I know I put a lot of passion into that response. But it's a subject near & dear to my heart.

I was talking yesterday with a grower who's been at this for many years. He rarely ever broke 600 lbs in his own yard. But this year he tended a patch some 40 miles from home & couldn't get to the plants but a few times a week. The results of his less than "ideal input"? Two fruit over 800 lbs. Better soil? Not really.

My response was intended to address so called "soil Nitrogen" as it is suggested on soil test reports as was measured by the lab. But labs don't test for Nitrogen. They only test for organic matter.

I'm beginning to think we are our own worst enemies once we get our soils up to snuff. I saw it here this year. I applied 2 ounces of 36-0-0 Ammonium Nitrate to each 100 sq ft circular mound when the soil was cold in early May.

The soil stayed cool for a bit but were was warming & the plants were still slow. So I treated them each to another 2 ounces of 46-0-0 Urea 10 days after the first dose.

As the soils warmed for good, soil bacteria woke up to the 6 yards of fall added cow manure. As I watched loads of females aborting I got disgusted & sent 25 newly expanding leaves via next day air to our tissue testing lab.

Tissue extracted Nitrogen (a real-deal lab test) proved extremely high Nitrogen levels.

The first 2 oz delivered the equivalent of .45 lbs/N/M
The next 2 oz delivered the equivalent of .56 lbs/N/M

Roughly the amount of fertilizer that fits in a tablespoon (per plant) was all it took to elevate my own Nitrogen levels to very dangerous levels. This impacted the entire growing season after 2 weeks of serious fruit aborts.

So at least in my 17.8% (19.3% at the time) Organic Matter soil, 1 pound of spring applied Nitrogen is way too much. I get the feeling that I'm not alone with the heavy organic soils. So folks like me need to really cut back on the applied Nitrogen if we're going to reach

10/28/2004 9:08:54 PM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

My main concern is I might have piled too much composted manure on my patch without getting it tilled in first, and that the depth of the manure is greater than the depth of the tiller. I'm going to get a soil sample in a couple of weeks, and I'm concerned about the nitrogen levels.

Thanks!

Matt

10/28/2004 10:37:57 PM