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Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

How much leaves is enough to be left to compost over the winter in a patch? I just spent a few minutes sneaking away my next door neighbour's 12 bags of leaves to add to the four we already have.

So, I figure that I've got about 75 cubic feet of leaves, give or take a few. My new patch will be about 300-400 sqft. I think that only makes about 2 or 3 inches of leaves when spread out. That doesn't sound like enough, especially once I mulch 'em up.

11/23/2004 1:47:13 AM

Paradise Mountain, New York

You need to get a lot more.... I have a cyclone which holds 300 gallons of ground up leaves. I can do a average size lawn in the fall and it only will fill this unit once. Maybe twice.... I have put as many as 12-14 pickup loads of ground up leaves on my patch and still will look for more if I can get them. You can never over do it. The leaves are better ground up and turned under in the soil before the snow starts.....

11/23/2004 2:06:11 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Agreed. The leaves will reduce greatly in volume as they decay. What looked like a mountain in the fall will be little more than a wheel barrow come spring. The magic of nature.

11/23/2004 8:11:56 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

OK, so how deep should I be going once spread out over the entire area? This'll help me calculate home many more bags I need to swipe from neighbours, or fill up at the ravine :-)

11/23/2004 9:24:08 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I put about 8 -12 inches of maple leaves on my patch and tilled them in, then I took another major pile and mulched it leaving me with another inch of finely gound up leaves on the patch.
.

11/23/2004 9:51:31 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Shredded is always best - more surface area & easier to break down.

I talked to Dave Larsen about his 04 season this summer.
He had fungal issues and lost everything.
Said he thought it was due to the 12" to 15" of leaves that he put on.

As in everything moderation is best.

6 to 8 on the patch.
Stockpile & compost the rest.

11/23/2004 12:36:02 PM

Key West, FL

yes, Jack LaRue and also Geneva have had Disease problems they blame on leaves....... Makes me worried about the leaves I just put on my patch.

11/23/2004 1:16:57 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

I am not sure if I can get my hand on a tiller at this time of year even though I know that would be best.

So, is it better to put the shredded leaves in a single layer now, covere them with soil and/or manure, and let them compost over Winter. Then I would till everything in the spring. Or, should I compost the leaves in a pile outside (or on top of) the patch and then till them in when I do Spring prep?

11/23/2004 2:16:31 PM

Eugene, OR

Do leaf borne diseases overwinter in climates that regularly see below freezing temperatures? Can diseases carried by the types of leaves we add to our patches actually be passed on to our pumpkin plants?

I also added every darn leaf I could get my hands on so I'm curious to hear more on this.

11/23/2004 2:27:44 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The sort of fungus disease one might find on the leaves of deciduous trees will not & cannot infect the roots of pumpkins. Dave Larsen might have had a soil borne root disease. It could not have been caused by adding leaves to his patch. Maybe the leaves held onto surplus rain water which may have worsened a soil borne root disease.

Lisa, Solarizing properly helps reduce soil borne pathogens. But it's rarely done properly. The time & preperation usually mean the results are less than desired.

It's like this with Basamid too. I've told 6 people the right way to use Basamid. So far each one has come back with "....yeah...but...". LOL

11/23/2004 5:35:06 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I have put 8-10 inches of ground up leaves on my garden for years before I got into growing Atlantic Giants. I will have to totally agree with Tremor that leaves have nothing at all to do with diseases in your patch.

11/23/2004 6:39:53 PM

Key West, FL

Steve, ryzochtonia (sp??) and stuff can't be passed to pumpkins?

11/24/2004 3:52:08 AM

Key West, FL

maybe leaves carry different diseases over here? I don't know, I don't want it to be true, but it seems to be a common link.

11/24/2004 3:58:06 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The Rhizoctonia that we worry about in the soil doesn't come from the leaves of deciduous trees. I'll devote some more time to the subject later but I need to get my truck at the shop.

11/24/2004 11:59:59 AM

Covington, WA

Ben I'm not sure the disease problems that Jack and Geneva experienced in their patches were caused by the addition of the leaves. I suspect the disease spores were already present, and the addition of leaves made conditions more favorable for the disease to infect the plants.

11/24/2004 12:02:58 PM

Eugene, OR

Great info here....I know I'll sleep better after reading this. Maybe the leaves seem to be a common link because most, if not all of us add leaves to our patch?

11/24/2004 12:11:08 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

OK here's what I know about Rhizoctonia solani. It affects a lot of crops. When it attacks turf grasses, we call the foliar version "Brown Patch:. When it attacks root systems we call it "Rhizoctonia Root Rot".

The most common occurence of Rhizoctonia in vegetables is found in Potatoes. The soilborne version in this case ruins the tubers (Potatoes) or roots.

In Cucribita sp, Rhizoctonia solani is most often encountered in the seedling stage. This is called Rhizoctonia damping off & should not be confused with Pythium or Phytophthora which also both cause "seedling damping off".

I have no idea which soil borne diseases Geneva Emmons or Jack LaRue have encountered. I also have no way of knowing if a pathological exam was done of the diseased polangt parts to confirm a causal agent.

Lets assume it wasn't the seedling stage since most of us can deal with that. We simply toss the seedling & plant a different one that isn't dead.

We're left guessing they both encountered a "root rot" phase of a soil borne pathogen caused root disease. These could be Fusaria, Rhizoctonia or Phythophthora in origin.

cont.

11/24/2004 8:21:27 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I have seen Fusarium Root Rot on Cucurbita first hand on several occasions. The last case was confirmed by a pathology lab. The patch I saw it in this year has never had fallen leaves added to it.

How did it get there? Either it has been present in the soil all along & chose this very wet summer to express itself. Or perhaps it took a ride in on a seed.

But in my opnion of the local case this summer, the causal pathogen of the disease has been present for quite some time, has always infected the roots by years end, & only this year did the grower & I notice it was present because the wet summer weather here made it more identifiable.

What does any of this have to do with fallen leaves? Nothing other than there is the remote chance that we might see better moisture retention the year following a bid addition of leaves that MIGHT make the incident rate of any soil borne root rot worse than it might otherwise have been.

Does this mean leaves caused the problem?

11/24/2004 8:21:35 PM

Montoursville, PA

In my case the first two years I added up to three applications of whole leaves up to a foot deep and tilled them in the fall. This year those leaves were composted fully and added to the patch. There is no doubt that composing first is better. Large plantings likely can not take the time or may not have the machinery to move large compost piles.

In either case I have never had any problem adding as many leaves as time and circumstance provided. The larger problem might be a temporary nitrogen tie up because the patch has not converted the leaves to humus over the winter.
I have had this situation only two years in my many years of gardening. Both times it was following the coldest winters we have had here on record. Simply put the bacteria were slowed by the deep freeze. My problems were not the leaves but rather condtions seldom encountered.

If I had to give up all but one element that goes in or on my patch I would keep the leaves.

12/17/2004 2:29:57 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Good point about the possibility of Nitrogen tie up. With respect to Rhizoctonia, this might actually be a good thing since Rhizoc likes high Nitrogen. So fixing surplus N might actually help prevent it.

Either way; like Doc says, adding composted leaves is more likely to help a patch than hurt it.

12/17/2004 9:45:36 PM