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Willamette Valley, Oregon

Here are some past discussions/links that are worth reading again if you're wondering about AGxSquash and the genetic mechanisms for green-ness:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=24&p=459597

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=24&p=384465

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=172546

There will always be some doubters, and that's ok too. If you've got data to refute the going theory, I'm definitely interested.

10/24/2013 8:20:13 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

RE: AG x squash - (cut and pasted from another discussion):

I think bringing green into an "AG" is probably less complicated than it seems.

Also:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=24&p=422783

Consider this breeding plan:

P1 - Start with the best available Squash clone and the best AG clone. Cross those once, (maybe twice as a back up) to make the F1.

F1's (AG x Squash - 1st generation offspring) are all exactly 50% squash + 50% pumpkin genetically - that's true because there's no mechanism for the mother and father genes to mix between each other yet. - (none will be green though, unless green was hiding in the AG - then 50% should be green. See past posts above.) - Many plants would be good here, but a handful would do - select largest one and go to F2.

F2's (Selfed or sibbed F1's - 2nd generation) - ON AVERAGE these offspring, as a population, will be 50% squash + 50% AG, but because of Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment any individual plant COULD theoretically be anywhere between 0% AG to 100% AG genetically (but a little less than 100% assuming we select for green from the squash). That's because all the genes from AG and Squash can get mixed up more or less "independently" in the F2. (This law also is why about 1 in 4 of this generation should be green.) We'd want a reasonably large number (say 30+ total) of F2 plants to get grown out to select from for the next generation. 4 or 5 plants in the F2 won't do the process justice.

Selecting the biggest green one from the F2 and selfing it should yield good family that produces big green fruit. .... OR Cross the best green one from the F2 with another big AG clone and start again at the F1. ON AVERAGE this new "F1" would be ~75% AG + ~25% squash -

10/24/2013 8:22:38 PM

Netherlands

So, once we select the true green ones, how much orange genetics are left and how much influence will that small percentage have on squash weights, taking into consideration that lower squash weights are not entirely caused by squash genetics?

10/25/2013 4:26:09 AM

Corryton, TN

In theory anywhere between 0%-100% except for the green gene. That one would be locked in. With that said keep in mind by doing the crossing in this manner we kept the best of the F2's. They should have more of the dominate or recessive genes that cause the modern orange AG's to go large and we also would have used the best of the squash which will have some of the same genes we want. I would expect the answer to your question to be greater than 50%.

In this breeding scenario I would be inclined to stay away from an AG clone that produced a light colored fruit, especially white, even if it was the best.

10/25/2013 6:16:48 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Aren't you taking the Orange Out...since it was originally green? Back in the early days there were several seeds that would either give you a beautiful orange pumpkin or emerald green squash. 616 Corkem is one I remember. G had a seed that would do the same.

10/25/2013 7:44:50 AM

Corryton, TN

The way I read Brad's post was that he was not necessarily talking about THE orange gene but the genes in general from an orange AG.

10/25/2013 7:52:28 AM

Netherlands

That is correct Dave. I'm just wondering how much of the pumpkin genes are left once the colour is gone.

10/25/2013 9:03:31 AM

California

So we already have some great pumpkin clones out there, but does anyone have clones of exemplary squash? Bathabitat, did you propagate your 1037*?

10/25/2013 11:24:47 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

In my haste at season's end I didn't consider that my 1037.5[1175] would be a clone candidate and in any case I didn't have any growing tips at harvest.

10/25/2013 1:02:11 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

My "plan" above was really just a demo of the genetics. And while that plan could work, I think, the actual plan might be different (and varied).

We're actually already at various stages past the initial cross, with a lot of AGxSquash / SquashxAG seeds out there and various back crosses or selfs. Pitura's seeds and the offspring (947 Cuypers and offspring) are examples of how it would work. I think it's worth maybe continuing those and starting again with the advanced AG and squash selections we have today.

Getting past that all-orange F1 is the tricky (and less fun) part, but Pete and I (and others) have done that this year (but we're not the first):

717 Holub est dmg 2013 (941* Sherwood x 1037* Jarvis [1175])
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=210713

905.5* Mohr 2013 (996* Haist x 941* Sherwood [230])
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=210504
230 Mohr (941*sherwood x 996*haist [905.5])
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=207282

The backcross (where 1/2 seeds throw green) increases the green odds over a self (where only 1/4 seeds throw green). Less ideal genetically, size-wise, but more practical in terms of the number of plants needed to get a greenie.

10/25/2013 1:20:38 PM

Springfield, Missouri

1037 Carlson (848 Mackenzie x 1432 Carlson)
1093 Razo (1191.5 Razo x 1221.5 Werner)
1119.5 Razo (1367 Rose x 848 Mackenzie)
1012.5 Pitura (1055 Pitura x 1231 Pukos)
356 Zaychkowsky(218 Andrews x 898 Knauss)
1025 Sherwook (848 Mackenzie x 723 Bobier)
947 Parsons (848 Mackenzie x 1177 Conley)
393.5 Pettit (824 Brunst x 550 Langevin)
749 Brunst (1053 Werner x 824 Brunst)
350 Grande (1053 Werner x 848 Mackenzie)
622 Grande (848 Mackenzie x 1470 Wallace)
833 Razo (962 Razo x 1068 Wallace)

10/25/2013 9:59:09 PM

Netherlands

To my knowledge this has taken place with the 1012.5 Pitura.
1012.5* Pitura (1055* x 1231) grew nice orange 1310 Pitura.
1310 Pitura grew 947 Cuypers* and several orange ones.
947 Cuypers* (1310 x self) grew 1106 Horde*
1106 Horde* hasn't grown anything spectacular to my knowledge.

The 1310 Pitura also grew the 921 Horde which was orange.
The 921 grew the 1088 Horde, which was orange but had the 800 Neily* crossed into it.
The 1088 Horde (921 x 800*) grew the 814 Horde* (dmg/est) which was sibbed and several other orange and green ones.
The 814* is going to be grown by almost all Dutch growers in 2014.
This seed combines the Pitura line with Neily one.

10/26/2013 5:46:08 AM

Netherlands

The 921 was 1310 Pitura x 895 Hester*.

10/26/2013 5:47:34 AM

Eurasia

I´ll crossbreed a best selfed squash (1175 Holub 13 from the selfed 1037.5 Jarvis 11) with my new and tiny little pumpkin, that I named Cucurbita maximelo (C. maxima Kabocha group x Cucumis melo `Tiger´).
This my new sweet (and only weighing about 7 lbs.) melonlike pumpkin segregated into four different F2s:
A: round and orange
B: flat and orange
C: flat and green
D: green-orange mottled and smaller (2 lbs.)
Last one I named C. maximelo `Acorneti´ cause of it´s shape and size. Since this Acorneti seems to show solid genetically fixed little sweet-melon-size, I do no further tries with it and only multiply it with a few other growers, but number C flat and green will be boosted in size with this beautiful 1175 from Scott Holub.
A and B will be bloated with a selfed 220.3 and my selfed 922 Mohr 11.
I don´t want to grow any record fruit.
Only pretty big edible pumpkins for industrial agriculture I want to grow.

10/28/2013 4:51:41 PM

Enumclaw, Washington

Brad, I did this test, and it is on going. I was out of town, and my neighbor Bob crossed my 989 Sherwood with a 1050 Hebb. The squash that resulted from this cross was dark green and 766 pounds in 2011.

I germinated 4 of the seeds in 2013 as a test. 2 of the plants produced nice green gray squash, and 2 produced bright orange pumpkins.

I then crossed the best squash produced with the 767 Johansson 2006. The resulting fruit was a nice green gray with no singe of pumpkin whatsoever. I picked and weighed one at 354.5 pounds. You must realize these were planted for test of the color only. 100 sqf, no fertilizer, no pruning or burring.

In 2008 I crossed the 767 johannson with the 1334.5 Datetas. It was the only flower I had. The resulting squash was 897 pounds an rather nice. I planted the seed from the 897 in 2009 crossed it with the 605 Handy ( again the only flower I could get that day) and the resulting fruit was a nice 919 greenish gray fruit. It was deemed a pumpkin for a one inch square of light yellow by the stem.

I am going to plant the my 897 in mass to see if there is a darker green stuck in there. I will plant my 354.5 from last year and cross the 1174 Holub into both of them. The 1174 will get selfed if I can't score some good squash pollen.

I think with the additional years of growing experience, and these quality genetics, the potential to through something really big and green is there.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryView.asp?season=2014&grower=37978&action=L

3/5/2014 12:04:34 AM

Long Island,New York

Keep the green ---green. Your only screwing up the reliability, causing major isues with judging and bad feelings on what should be the happy-day of the season.Countless judges I've talked to dread the day of the wieghoff out of fear they have to DQ or reclassify someone's year long effort because its some mish-mash of color genetics that everyone is only guessing at.If you must screw around (or "develope genetic perfection" as some claim, keep it home in your patch or proudly display it on your lawn. Dont try and pass it off as a greeny when you know it has has yellow (thats called cheating). Yes...I said it. If you try and enter a fruit in a catagory hoping a judge will miss it you are cheating.That makes you a cheater. Think about it.
Dont give the seeds out until its stable either....it absolutely sucks to grow an off-green when you spent a summer working on something.
Do it for the hobby. Do it for the judges. Do it for the fellow grower.

3/5/2014 5:36:38 AM

Enumclaw, Washington

LIpumpkin,

When you only have one flower to go with, in a 2 week period, or when a rogue neighbor/grower pollinates for you while you are on vacation, you don't have many other options. Doing tests to see what will happen is the basic nature of our sport. Taking that fruit to a weigh off site and having it weighed as exhibition is a very reasonable thing to do. Sending the seeds out as squash seeds when you truly have no idea what they will become would be irresponsible. The fact is that in 12 years growing I have only ever had any requests for squash seeds this last year. The shame of the deal is how few seeds really getting planted, how narrow the genetic lines have become, and yes how hard the judging can be.

I have had be party disqualify many fruits that were though by the grower to be a squash, that were by the rules a pumpkin. That is not fun for anyone! I see pictures on this sight from major event sites were PUMPKIN's are dreamed squash. My own club is not consistent in its application of the rules. Honestly the whole situation pisses me off. This sport is for the fun, but there are way too many growers that are too uptight, and are in it for their ego's.

3/5/2014 11:16:13 AM

Enumclaw, Washington

Continued

I have grown several squash over the years buy BIG NAME GROWERS that have turned into something that was not a squash...... so there is no need to tell me about spending all summer to end it in a lack luster pumpkin. That crap has cost me thousands in prize money over the years, and hundreds of hours of my time. SO KEEP YOUR ACCUSATIONS OF CHEATING TO YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bring that attitude leads to big trouble!!!!!!!!!!!! Just a hint you may want to consider using words like "bad practice" Were I come from that would get you a black eye, and a fat lip fast!

The squash genetics running into a back water is a known fact. The fact that growing technique is advancing a quickly as it is, and squash weights are not climbing at the same rate is troubling. I get normally 95% to 100% germination rates on pumpkins, and my squash is around 50%. I have planted 848's that have been selfed 3 times that will not come up no mater how many seeds I try. If we don't start working to bring some new genetics to the table, squash may be a thing of the past in as little as 10 years. Most of the good squash growers I am in contact with are working on some sort or alternative program. They may not be talking about it in an ope forum like this, but they are working on it. I think if you are just going with lines that lead back to the old standard like the 895, 848, and the 900 one day there will be no green to be seen as far as the eye can see.

For the most part I stay off of big pumpkins. The because some users are unable to keep this forum considerate, adult, and positive. Again it has been shown that is the case. Ill go back into the ghosts of the machinery, and grow in my forsaken outpost, were it is quite, and growers don't work to piss me off. That my just keep me from going back to jail for punching some one out in the middle of a GPC seminar for being an ass!

3/5/2014 11:16:34 AM

Enumclaw, Washington

JUST TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR Mr. Andrews this is not a threat. This is a general statement about the way I feel when posts are made that I consider name calling, and personalized! Post of that nature are inappropriate, and are typically made to get a negative reaction. You don't know me. I don't know you. I am a good guy. I am well respected in my club, and I have a good reputation as being a quality grower with high standards. My wife and I have dedicated 5 yeast of our lives serving on the board of directors for the Pacific Northwest club. I donate to and participate the Oregon club every year. As a site coordinator for the GPC for the last 8 years I am required to uphold the rule set forth by the GPC! Malingering my character in this way by calling me a cheater is just wrong and uncalled for!!!!!!!!!!!!! It undermines my ability to help the judges mitigate disputes about color! Frankly I feel you need to retract you statement!

3/5/2014 12:09:25 PM

Enumclaw, Washington

Wow Thanks for all the supportive emails have been poring in!!!!!!!! The requests for squash AG cross seeds has been very high. I guess there are lots of growers out there that really want to have diversify their squash genetics knowing full well they may spend all summer growing a beautiful fruit only to have it go pumpkin.

3/6/2014 9:36:39 AM