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Cornelius, Oregon

First, who all has grown this seed?
Second, here is my history with the 900 Lyons to try an put a track record and perhaps some light on the genetics that have come from this seed, at least from the Hester Patch.

1997 - My first year with the seed. Grew one plant that produced a 200 or so pounder in a test patch. All Green

1998 - Second year with the 900. Grew one plant, produced light orange fruit that split early, a dud. All Light Orange.

1999 - third year with this seed. This year was very cold in the Northwest, and the 862 was the largest fruit produced in the NW in 99. The 862 and the 611 were both grown on the same 900 lyons plant. Both were heavy for size, both were good green, not really dark green though. Okay here things get weird, the 862 was a 900 x 469 Hester cross. The 862 offspring tend to have the 469 traits, yellow in color to white, but weigh heavy. No green though. The 611 was a 900 x 737 Stellpflug. Throws 90% orange fruit with an occasional white one. Both the 611 and 862 have gone over 1000 pounds.

1/28/2004 1:21:04 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

2000 - Fourth year with the 900. The year of the 895. I grew two 900 plants in 2000. Plant one was the silver bullet. I lost a fruit that was all dark green and 986 pounds still growing 12 a day on Sept 17th. This plant was the male pollinator to the 895. Note, the 986 produces heavy dark ORANGE fruit. The 895 produces 100% green fruit and had a sister on the same plant in the 498. The 498 was crossed with the other 900 plant as well. So what we have going on is 2 900 plants. Call them 1 and 2. Cross male 1 with female 2 you get nice green aggressive fruit, but you cross male 2 with female 1, you get aggressive orange fruit.

2001 - Fifth year with this seed. Grew 1 900 lyons plant. It produced very aggressive dark Orange fruit that split, the 649 and 623.

2002 - Sixth year with the 900. Grew one plant and it did something completely new. It grew the 906. The 906 was a flawless light orange fruit (900 Lyons x 723 Bobier)grown on 150 square feet or so. So here I had aggressive, light orange, and no flaws.
Offspring of the 906 are guess what, either beautiful Orange, or dark green.

Now then I have found an odd similarity. The plants that produced the 895 and the one which produced the 986. Both 895 and 986 were sibbed. One throws 100% orange, the other 100% green. The similarity lies in these two, the 856 and the 675. The plant that grew the 856 (call it 895 1) and the plant which grew the 675 (call it 895 2) were sibbed both ways. The 856 is throwing all dark orange fruit (with one 80 pound exception) and the 675 is throwing 100% green.

Something else to look at is the fact that the children of the 895 are all green, but grandchildren even with sibbed or selfed 895 parents are going dark orange.

Just what was the 900 Lyons? I think it was a big melting pot of all the AG genits rolled into one fruit and both the orange gene and green gene were there for isolation.

1/28/2004 1:46:41 PM

ontario

so what your saying Brett is we should plant 895.5 selfed or sibbed offspring as they could go pumpkin.....hmmmm better give so more thoughts to my squash choices .....hmmm

1/28/2004 1:51:53 PM

Stouffville

I became interested in this seed after seeing what Steve Hoult did with it in '95.

1996- grew one that gave me a pumpkin measuring around 700, which we never weighed. This fruit was pollinated on August 3 and probably could have made it over 900lbs if it had had more time. It was structurally sound, being quite smooth and showing no sign of any dill ring. of the four 900's i grew between '96 and '97 this seed had the most potential

1997- grew three 900 lyons, one was a squash (my 660.5).
the other two were pumpkins: 480 est (dill ring split)
550est (blossom end split)

so for me 3 out of 4 grew pumpkins. -mike

1/28/2004 1:57:31 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

WK, I think you are safe in the 675. If you are going for a squash with the 856, probably isn't going to happen.

1/28/2004 2:15:59 PM

ontario

just teasing you Brett.....I am growing the 675 Hester...and the 900.5 Lyons :0)

1/28/2004 3:18:45 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

That is interesting that you pose that question Brett.
I took a look at all of the available pictures of 900 progeny the other night.
I was really surprised to see the large variation of color of the offspring. Dark orange to Dark Green.

Obviously this trait has been passed along to the fruit that you have grown.

Grower beware when selecting a seed with 900 Lyons* in it's family tree. You might not know exactly what color you are going to get.



Does any one know how many genes are responsible for color in cucurbitae?

1/28/2004 8:24:39 PM

Mulino, Oregon

Brett, the 552 Sherwood '02 was a sibbed daughter to the 895. The 552 then produced the 962 Sherwood in '03, a nice heavy green squash. So not all grandaughters go orange.

1/28/2004 9:07:45 PM

Greencastle, PA

the 900.8 also grew the 720 Welty (pumpkin), the 720 produced the dark green 744 Welty. The 744 Has grown some pretty nice squash for Nic. It seems very hard to predict the color of all the 900 offspring, some sibbed 895's grow squash, some grow pumpkins, the 986 grows pumpkins but was pollinated by the mother of a beautiful squash, the 862 and 611 both grow pumpkins....... Yep, sounds like a melting pot.
Tom

1/28/2004 9:38:16 PM

Sask, Canada

Brett:

The info you have for the 856.0 is incorrect, this grew 2 orange and two green.

The green was the 673.0 Swarts and my 509.0 Pearce.
when looking at the pics on AGGC I see very similar fruit.

My 509 was the same dark color as the 673, the pic posted was taken before it darkened up, I also believe my 509 is the only squash crossed back to your 895.5 (856 X 895.5)

I completely agree with you on the 675.0 but I believe you'll see a few 899.5 throw some orange, but a better green to orange ratio than the 856, probably in the range of 5 to 1. Your 675 though is an excellent candidate for a cross out but a green offspring of the 899.5 X self would be better.

Be nice to see where this green 900 Lyons line goes in a few more generations.

Also what's your plans on the 675, you growing it this season?, crosses???

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

1/28/2004 10:09:21 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

My plans for squash in 2004 are pretty simple. I have decided to put the 895 back in the competition patch and have a 552, 675, and a 900 Lyons in the semi-comp. patch. Crossed shall be the 552 with the 675 and vice-versa. Also cross the 900 with the 552 or 675 and the same for the 895. Perfect world will look like this:
552 x 675
675 x 552
895 x 675
900 x 552

1/29/2004 12:34:43 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Brett/All: You say the 895 has a tendency to go back orange after a couple of generations? Any advice on what would be a good cross to keep it green?
Frank

2/2/2004 4:28:08 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Brett, about the 552 x 675 x 895 x 900. What do you see in its potential. I would think it is time to introduce another strain of seed into the Lyons line. I am confused about crosses. Do you expect it to be stronger green down the road.
Russ L.

2/2/2004 5:07:37 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

I don't have the genetic backgrounds that the above people have but did grow a 534 Andrews last year... a sibbed 900 lyons although the 534 was bright orange the offspring I got was very Green!! In poor soil and bad light it did as best it could to stay alive but still produced a nice shaped squash. Apparently one sib threw green the other orange. My sib was the orage pollenated by the green so I suspect the dominate green as a pollenator helped. I would also expect that the offspring that do go orange would squash up following a green pollenation again.

2/2/2004 6:29:01 PM

Choctaw, OK

I was once told, the more gene pairs a certain trait has, the more environmentally influenced it is. It has been suspected that human eye color has 8 genes pairs. This means two parents with blue eyes could very well have children that dont have blue eyes. I dont think human eye color is environmentally influenced, however, i think pumpkin and squash color can be (environment influenced) along with the combination of many gene paris for skin pigment...I argue maybe that's part of what we have seen....its just a crazy idea that makes some sense to me for this whole color thing in AG's.

I have noticed sunlight can make orange fruit more orange and green fruit more brown. Thats environment influence. I observed orange tarps used for shade decrease the amount of green on a (white) fruit when it matures, or alteast slows it down.

I crossed a squash (596* Johnson 99) with the 788 wentzell 99 that grew my 762 in 2000. The 596* has some mutations and the fruit were sometimes connected to the side vine at the node. I happened to pollinate one of these with the 788 and it set. The fruit got to about 40-50 lbs and split. I grew a seed from this small squash and i grew a 572.5 lb uow pumpkin in 2002. Fruit was white as a ghost and the plant didnt have any problems. I did have problems with seeds in the blossom, thats it.

Thats my only real squash story as i havent grown many. I did grow a 494* in 2002 from the 744* welty and crossed it with the 943.5* McCallum that produced green fruit. So far, the 494* has throw 100% green...like the genetics on paper say it should.



Case

2/20/2004 12:34:04 AM

Deer Park WA

I like to look at the 895.5 Hester off spring's male pollinators and compare the color of the resulting "in season fruit". Notice the wide color/shape variations of the 895.5 fruit. Notice anything unuesual? Narrow down the pumpkin pollinators V.S 895.5 self/Sibb/or other squash pollinators and the picture starts to clear up. Conclusion, male pollinators do effect the current seasons color shape and size outcomes.

2/20/2004 1:17:43 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

lol

2/20/2004 1:27:02 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

I grew Case's 494* last year. It stopped growing for some reason at 90# but I think that was growers mistakes. It was dark green however.

2/20/2004 6:38:15 AM

Choctaw, OK

Gads....i dont think the male pollinator affects the color of the current seasons fruit...maybe shape, due to the amount of lobes and how well pollinated the flower was. Shape has even more variance than color....theres a lot more too it than the role the male pollinator (or the person who pollinated it)..weight distribution of the walls, gravity, envrionment, genetics, etc.

The 494* is currently growing a near 700 lb squash for Clinton (aka Down Under) in australia. I hope it holds and gives him a new australian squash record.

2/20/2004 10:27:23 AM

Iowa

The moral of the story... We can try cross for color and shape all we want, but in the end, they ALL are still Dill's Atlantic Giants, which came from a pumpkin AND a squash and BOTH will forever have influence on all the AG's we grow. So it may always be unpredictable what a certain seed will always throw, which I think makes this sport so much fun!
Ralph

2/22/2004 6:54:59 PM

Indiana

What are you talking about? Squash did not all come from Dills Atlantic Giant......LOL

Tom

2/22/2004 11:01:56 PM

Deer Park WA

And God made a Gourd and Adam was exceedingly glad.

2/22/2004 11:36:36 PM

Long Island,New York

I have seen some indications that some fruits color can be influenced by the pollen donor in some instances (hows that for difinitive proof/theory?..lol). This observation is under research in my garden when I can get things worked out...someday.
I grew two 900Lyons plants hoping for squash...nice plants...open and airy, big leaves. You can always tell a 900Lyons plant just by walking by the plant..or one from it...as you pass by a typical xmass tree plant of another genetic background all you see is green leaves...when you pass by the next plant, if its a 900lyons you see leaves and dirt.Its an open and airy plant in that sense.
Plant#1 produced light to medium orange fruit and plant #2 produced lumpy green squash, but I got no squash to make the season. The orange one set many fruit...the green wouldn't set well. Both plants threw fruit on the same sides of the mains at the same distance out for about 25 feet...exact copies of each other except color.
The orange fruit (534.8Andrews00) was sib pollinated by the green 900lyons and was grown once producing a green squash of med-dark green. Long stems are also a 900Lyons trait. .....G

2/23/2004 8:51:29 AM

Eveleth MN

What are the chances of the 534.8 Andrews throwing a Greenie? I'm a fist year grower and this is one of the Seeds I received from my first year grower seed request. I wouldn't mind a Greenie in the patch, I'll probibly plant it anyhow to see what it grows.

3/1/2004 8:58:06 PM

Long Island,New York

The 534 was grown once and grew a green squash...so I guess that means the chances are 100% so far......G

3/1/2004 9:29:08 PM

Midwest

Was the first fruit from the 455 green also ?????..CK

3/2/2004 9:12:33 AM

Long Island,New York

yES...THE FIRST FRUIT FROM MY 455 WAS GREEN ALSO....954LBS WORTH .

3/2/2004 8:14:45 PM

Long Island,New York

yES...THE FIRST FRUIT FROM MY 455 WAS GREEN ALSO....954LBS WORTH .tHE SECOND FRUIT WAS ORANGE BUT ONLY 940LBS.

3/2/2004 8:15:22 PM