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Lodi, California

Hi, I was just thinking about the origins of green squash, and it made me curious what they really are. Does anyone know where they came from?

I was looking at other members of c. maxima, and it struck me that a similar result to green squash could be produced by crossing members of c. maxima such as the Jerrahdale blue pumpkin, or queensland blue, or simar with an atlantic giant, then selectively breeding for color and size, until the point where you've eliminated most every trait from the progeny aside from the green coloration and the large size.

I don't know if this is actually how green squash came about, it just occurred to me and made me curious about where they came from, whether they are a natural occurrence, or the result of a cross between two or more members of c. maxima. Moreover, I noticed that squash have a propensity (and correct me if I'm wrong) to go a bit heavy to chart, which started some alarm bells in my head concerning the cavity size of different members of c. maxima, and selectively breeding for heavier fruit, issues that I've thought about in the past.

I've got some of the aforementioned varieties of c. maxima and I'd like to try crossing a couple with AGs to observe the result. If it doesn't produce any interesting results, then at the very least it might produce a larger edible squash. Let me know if you have any experience crossing these varieties.

I'd love to hear any facts, or thoughts you might have on the topic, or whether I'm beating a dead horse because this topic has already been discussed.

1/30/2022 1:39:47 PM

Bethlehem CT

Good question Ashton, maybe some others will chime in here. I know Howard Dill patented the 'Show King' squash seed line back in the 70's or 80's, modern squash genetics probably have a lot of relation to those seeds.
I found this quote from Brad Wursten in an old message board thread about squash.
"They (squash) are grown a lot less, certainly by the HH, and if grown are often not given the best position in the patch and likely not the same care either. Furthermore there are very few successful squash lines compared to pumpkins. Remember that till the 1990s there weren't real big differences in weight between the two. The famous William Warnock pumpkins were of course squash as were many/all of the winning fruit before that, going back back to the "first" pumpkin record from Suffolk, England, in 1857 which was a squash as well.

In 2007 I grew a pumpkin and a squash in identical conditions (in a greenhouse) and there was almost no difference in weight (1256 for the pumpkin and 1234 for the squash).

1/30/2022 2:31:43 PM

Lodi, California

Thanks for the insight. Yeah I agree that they have similar potential, though I think squash may be a few years behind AGs for the same reason, less people grow them, so there's less selective pressure to produce the biggest fruit, which means that by nature squash genetics progress slower than AGs. This compounds with your point that they are grown far less, making it less likely for squash to beat pumpkins in terms of weight. And the point about relegating them to less desireable conditions is also fair. I have about 8000 square feet of garden space, but I'm planning on growing 4 AGs in a little over half that area, long gourds, tomatoes, and watermelon, as well as the rest of my edible garden. I want to grow the biggest AG possible, so at least for now I'll be relegating any squash I grow to a much smaller, less favorable piece of ground. Of course, I'm not growing them for competition, I'm just playing around with them, producing seeds, and using them as display pieces.

Sorry that was a bit of a tangent and off topic

1/30/2022 2:55:15 PM

Nova Scotia

Hi there, good post. My father Howard Dill never patented the "Show King" squash, it was more namely rights at the time. He patented the "Dill's Atlantic Giant" pumpkin variety in 1980s, after many trials and errors trying to separate the colors of these 2 C. Maxima types. Naturally the giant orange ones caught the publics attention and growers back then and brought us where we are today. I am so happy to see where some growers are bringing squash weights to rival the pumpkins. What bothered my father back in the 1970s was the fact a couple contests dubbed as a "Giant Pumpkin Show or contest" usually had a "giant green squash" win first place, which did not make sense to him. As well going way back, you never knew what you were going to get planting seed from these C. Maxima species, could be green, yellow, mottled colored fruit with both green and yellow. My father tried to isolate these characteristics for the most part, however due to genetics after a couple generations you may get a specimen opposite in color. Regarding thickness and weight, there was a time when what I call specimens that had a cream/white color that went heavy, over the chart. The nice orange ones went usually light. As Dad always said, "It's not a beauty contest but the heaviest" But saying all this, he would be thrilled to see all the giant pumpkins today that are "BIG N' ORANGE, that was his mission back in the day.

1/30/2022 4:59:32 PM

Nova Scotia

Regarding origins, some growers who come to mind who grew the biggest squash were Edgar VanWyck from Manitoba, Coon brothers from Ohio, Ralph Dreisbach from Ohio. And no doubt all from "Hungrian Mammoth" that many farmers purchased seed from old seed companies and family saved seeds over the years such as here.

1/30/2022 5:06:54 PM

Lodi, California

Hey howard, it's nice to see that you visit the message board regularly! Thanks for the information, it's exactly what I was looking for. Yeah it seems like the green is very well bred out of AGs now, I've never heard of a "pure bred" AG throwing green progeny in recent times. I'm glad your dad did what he did to develop the atlantic giant, and that you're keeping the legacy alive and visiting the bp forums.

1/30/2022 5:12:30 PM

Nova Scotia

Thank you for the kind words. And yes a few years ago I experienced right here what I thought at the time a good solid red/orange gene line, then an offspring went green? It really threw me for a curve ball, but not surprised in our world of genetics. No different with so many other crops and people for that matter, how some skip generations then all of a sudden appear.

1/30/2022 7:23:42 PM

Grittyville, WA

I grew some that were labeled 'Buen Gusto de Horno' x 2009 Wallace. But what the plant yielded mostly looked like Buen Gusto de Horno's. I couldnt tell if there really were any 2009 Wallace genes in them at all. So the giant trait might be recessive? (Or the seeds weren't as advertised.) I did successful controlled pollinations & have seeds if interested. The only cross I saved the seeds from was Buen gusto x Theil squash... I planted three of the 1068.5 Theil in the same hill and used the best one to pollinate the Buen gusto de horno. I can assure you that the pollination was perfectly controlled.

2/5/2022 7:04:38 AM

Bethlehem CT

Hi Danny I remember the Hungarian Mammoth seeds, I grew those in the mid 1980's. I think I got them from Gurney's or Henry Fields. I wish I had kept the coffee cans full of seeds that I saved from back then, But they are long gone.
I know several other people that were growing a dark orange seed and it produced a gorgeous dark green squash for them. I have seen it go the other way too.

2/5/2022 8:54:25 AM

Nova Scotia

Hey big moon, forgive me, who are you? I'm not up with big pumpkin handles, lol. Yes Gurney, Henry Fields, and most seed companies back then offered "Hungarian Mammoth", "Genuine Mammoth" and few other names as well I believe, but they were all basically the same. Some companies just like to change the name a bit as if it's new or different. I even see it today for some pumpkin varieties. Also I recall back in the mid 1970S, seeing a huge pile of Hungarian Mammoths setting outside in a big pile during November, waiting to be seeded in Ontario,all various colors. No doubt we still have some of that old seed here and of course Howard's seed from his original WR.

2/5/2022 11:00:00 AM

Colorado

The Willam Warnock worlds records from late1800's early 1900's were green.I believe their origin was a Hubbard squash.Wasnt there a "Goderich giant" that was one of those old seed companies.

2/5/2022 3:30:09 PM

Nova Scotia

I believe Warnock's giants back then were called the "Goderich Giant" because he was from there? Origin from Hubbard squash, I do not know. And yes since then right up to the 1970s most of the giants were green in color until Howard through trial and error worked at isolating the yellow/orange color first, then the size.

2/5/2022 4:38:11 PM

Bethlehem CT

Hi Danny, my name is John Ciesielski I have been growing AG's competitively since I found this site back In 06. However, I have always been fascinated by giant pumpkins and squash and was growing them as a kid in my garden in the 1980's. Once I found this site and finally started getting my hands on some seeds from growers it made all the difference.

2/7/2022 8:06:26 AM