Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I think the bigger question is what are you using to make it?
Compost,worm castings?

Aerobically brewed organic liquid compost is alive, filled with millions of healthy soil biota (living creatures). Because it is oxygen brewed, Compost tea contains high levels of beneficial bacteria.

The best way we know to reinvigorate artificial or exhausted soils is to inoculate them with an aerobically brewed compost tea. These teas are concentrates that can contain billions of beneficial soil biota in a single teaspoon

Essentially, compost tea production is a brewing process that extracts microorganisms from compost followed by microbial growth and multiplication. This includes beneficial bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematodes. When compost teas are sprayed onto the leaf surface, these beneficial organisms occupy spatial niches on the leaf surface and gobble up leaf exudates that pathogenic organisms would otherwise feed on to prosper; other microbes directly interfere with pathogenic organisms through antagonism.

Ideally, compost teas contain both an Abundance (immense total number) and a Diversity (vast mixture) of beneficial microorganisms which perform different functions. Pathogenic organisms that land on the leaf surface simply cannot compete with the beneficial organisms and therefore have a greatly reduced chance to initiate disease in the first place.

12/5/2006 6:25:25 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Continued:
Compost teas are applied either to the soil or to the plant foliage. Those applied to the soil will move into the root zone and affect the rhizosphere of the plant. Nutrients carried in the tea will be used by the plant as well as the microorganisms in the soil. The microbes in the compost tea may have a lot of competition with other soil microorganisms, but have the opportunity to become a part of the soil and rhizosphere microbial ecology.

Alternatively, compost teas applied to the plant foliage will immediately impact the plant and there is very little room for forgiveness from the plant if a tea with toxic qualities is used. A good quality compost will provide beneficial microorganisms and nutrients to the surface of the plant to assist the plant in disease suppression and nutrient availability. A poor quality compost tea may be supplying the plant surface with unwanted components such as salts and problem microorganisms. Compost tea destined for foliar applications in particular should only be made with the highest quality of compost to avoid problems such as salt burn and the distribution of pathogens in critical areas of the plant

12/5/2006 6:25:49 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Continued;
There are many different ways to brew compost tea, and a few different “flavors” of tea which include using well composted manure or worm castings, we wont go into which may be better or more effective, but we will touch on one particular method, the “bucket method”. It consists of brewing the tea in a 5 gallon bucket. You will need:

5 gallon bucket - mature compost or worm castings -1 aquarium pump -water - molasses - a sock or pantyhose as a filter - Fish emulsion - Seaweed - Blood meal and Bone meal are optional.

We will not give specific quantities as this usually sparks debates on whose recipe is the best and most effective, but these ingredients were given to me by a seasoned grower whom also teaches organic studies at a University.

Place the Compost or castings in the sock or pantyhose and add the fish, seaweed and diluted molasses, add water and turn on air pump and let brew from 24 to 72 hrs, the warmer the climate the quicker it will brew. You will know it is ready when you see the brown foam forming on top. There are many sources of information about Compost tea available online to view.

12/5/2006 6:26:09 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Continued:
What are the potential benefits of Compost Tea?

Compost Tea provides:

Direct nutrition - A source of foliar and soil organic nutrients. - Chelated micronutrients for easy plant absorption - Nutrients in a biologically available form for both plant and microbial uptake

Microbial Functions

Compete with disease causing microbes -Degrade toxic pesticides and other chemicals -Produce plant growth hormones - Mineralize plant available nutrients - Fix nitrogen -Plant surfaces are occupied by beneficial microbes leaving no room for pathogens to infect the plant (squatters rights)

12/5/2006 6:26:56 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Continued:
Compost Tea will help to create a balanced soil foodweb.

A balanced Soil Foodweb will:

1. Suppress disease-causing and pest organisms

2. Improve the nutritional quality of the plant.

3. Produce good soil structure, improving water infiltration, oxygen diffusion, and water-holding capacity.

4. Retain nitrogen and other nutrients such as calcium, iron, potassium, phosphorus, etc.

5. Make nutrients available for plant growth at the times plants require at the rates plants require.

6. Decompose plant residues rapidly

7. Reduce worker exposure to potentially harmful chemicals

8. Produce hormones that help plants grow.

12/5/2006 6:27:17 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

to answer your question.......lol........yes, I am for it....LOL

12/5/2006 6:27:49 AM

Jim,
I for one am conviced that a good tea is not only helpful but is a necessity for growing any plant in healthy soil. If you are trying to keep the use of chemicals down, avoid disease and insect damage, as well as the damage that is so often caused by the use of over doing chemical ferts(usually terminal when that occurs) I for one think it is the obvious answer.
It appears that the trend is to building our soils and letting the genetics "run the fruit" to it's maximum potential. That said, tea is a key in providing the boost to the soil(and the critters within)that these freaks are draining as they grow.
Teas are only as good (or bad) as the materials used. I for one will be using a lab that tests compost until I am confident in my "recipe" before using it in my tea(an added expense but I have my reasons for doing it). Last season all my brews used castings for the base, this year I will strive to do a rotation of various teas in hope of supplying all the critters I want to feed in the "web" I am trying to establish in the patch and gardens here.
35+ years of gardening experience and just discovering aerated teas last year has encouraged me to spend the winter months doing research in the ever expanding knowledgebase of organic farming techniques. I truely feel that this is the path to greatest success in whatever your goals are in the patch or garden.
The Rodale Institute, Ruth and Scott Nearing, Ruth Stout were all in my library from the '60's and '70's I just had to find them under the dust. Now the internet affords the info on where these pioneers have taken us.

12/5/2006 7:25:25 AM

heh heh,,,looks like Tom has been reading to

12/5/2006 7:28:26 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Oh oh...Tom is going to hate me now...LOL

Did you quote someone who has been drinking Kool-Aid or working with Dr. Elaine Ingham? She would disagree with a lot of the following claims & feels that making such claims is akin to snake-oil sales more than real plant science.

Too many misconceptions out here.

I agree with Jim that the time has come to clear some of the mud out of this murky water. Tom has listed 8 points here that are commonly mis-credited to Compost Tea.

We seem to have a problem with the definition of terms. Maybe we need to have a glossary. If Ken's new format will support a "Sticky" it should be the first one on this board.

1. Suppress disease-causing and pest organisms -"YES" to a degree. That is the primary goal of ACT & it works on certain diseases.

2. Improve the nutritional quality of the plant. - "NO" from the standpoint of REAL nutrition there is almost ZERO plant food production in real ACT.

3. Produce good soil structure, improving water infiltration, oxygen diffusion, and water-holding capacity. - "NO" again. ACT doesn't alter the physical structure of soil at all. At best it may contribute a small biofilm to the soil surface but this is considered a "pest control feature" & not a nutritional benefit.

4. Retain nitrogen and other nutrients such as calcium, iron, potassium, phosphorus, etc. - "NO" - the soil CEC is not altered one bit.

5. Make nutrients available for plant growth at the times plants require at the rates plants require. - "NO" - not unless these elements are added after brewing. ACT (when properly brewed) does not seek to produce any macro or micronutrient.

6. Decompose plant residues rapidly - NO, Not usually. Bacteria does this. ACT is a fungal brew. Bacteria would come from a "soil-soup" which is totally different. Bacteria complexes may be added to ACT. Too many people get this confused. One is aerobi

12/5/2006 7:38:29 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

7. Reduce worker exposure to potentially harmful chemicals "YES"

8. Produce hormones that help plants grow. "NO" - I have never seen a citation where auxins, gibberellins, etc were produced in the ACT brewer. I have seen where folks add thwm to the finished brew before use.

12/5/2006 7:39:53 AM

Roanoke Il

low doses of nutrents is the key. but to be truthful straight compost tea has little benifits, on the other hand if you kick your compost tea up with things like seaweed kelp greensand fish alfa meal and a simple sugars warm castings.. oh my now your talking. Great post tom you rock..mark

12/5/2006 7:45:12 AM

Steve you may know your chemicals but your posts in this case are way out of line,,,

Dr Ingham is one of the creators of the "soil wood web" concept and clearly encourages the use of tea to support the mutifunctions that are required for a "productive web".

This is very complicated yet easy to understand area if we simply invision all that is really going on in a healthy productive soil. All of your "NO" answers in the above posts are turned to "YES" if you understand the way things work in the overall picture of how a healthy soil enables the plant to get what it needs,,
I saw this title mentioned here in message boards, I read it and now have a better understanding of the concept,,try reading "Teaming with Microbes" by Jeff Lowenfells & Wayne Lewis,,foreward by Elaine Ingham. An excellent book explaining in easy to understand terms the interaction of all the things in the soil and how we can help that happen."Teaming" is the key word.

12/5/2006 9:01:09 AM

WiZZy

President - GPC

Thanks guys, now my wife will know what I want for XMAS, good posts!

12/5/2006 10:01:40 AM

Roanoke Il

Dan I think the only thing steve is stating is that compost isn't by itself a cure all like picture tom painted with his post. If you jack up your compst tea like most of you do, as you stated in an earlier thread then it is very benifical.. the report i've read compost tea works to control powdery mildew on certain corps but after a two year study very little effect on controlling powdery mildew on pumpkins. if yor adding things like worm castings alalfa pellets fish sea weed ect, it truely isn't purely compost tea but hell both you and tom have grown 1000 lbers this you so i'm all infavor of triing it... mark

12/5/2006 11:45:49 AM

WiZZy

President - GPC

What about levels....High in Potassium? In checking I saw more K in alfalfa then N, I need no more K for now.......

12/5/2006 1:11:21 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Mark, who ever said it was a cure all? Get your facts straight and read again and tell me where I SAID THAT?
It is another piece of the puzzle, if it isnt for you, dont do it, but dont put words in my mouth...
I add different things to my tea, and yes it is a worm casting tea.
It all depends on who you ask, Steve will say no, other experts will say it does just what I posted, all taken from experts in the field.
Everyone is entititled to their opinion, but dont twist the words around mark.

12/5/2006 1:22:36 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

If the soil won't sustain the overblown microheard you have created in a bucket then what makes you think CT is the answer? You can not improve your soil by over exaggerating one end of it. I'm always adding compost and organic fertilizers to my garden. It doesn't get any better than that. Balance is the key. Like I've always said put the compost in the garden and forget the CT. In responce to Unkadan's statement, an excellent book explaining in easy to understand terms the "interaction of all the things in the soil" and how we can help that happen."Teaming" is the key word. The phrase "interaction of all things in the soil" would lead one to believe that the Authors have all the answers. In fact mostly what they are selling is a belief, A HYPOTHESIS. So much more is not known about the soil food web than is. A good Salesman can sell just about anything. Snakeoil anyone? Teaming is not the key, Balance is. Later Spudley.

12/5/2006 1:22:39 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

opps, entitled....lol

12/5/2006 1:23:48 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Laboratory produced biological innoculants that have a known affect, quality and quantity are in my opinion a good thing. Later Spudley.

12/5/2006 1:43:52 PM

owen o

Knopp, Germany

i know i am knew at building up the soil, and trying to grow responsibly instead of just "throw some miracle gorw on it", but this is very confusing to those of us that do not understand.

you know, i wonder what the guys/gals did that have grown one over 1200 pounds? i bet there expertice would shed some light, regardless of how much everyone else thinks they have.

did they use CT, or ACT, or EIEIO? Do they have a special formula for brewing their tea? And my question is not for htose that think they know the answer, my answer is for those that have grown over 1200 pounds.

My bet is that i will not get an answer.

12/5/2006 1:46:43 PM

Roanoke Il

Tom sorry if you took post totally wrong. I really did like your first few post about compost tea. I never said you said it was a cure all, just said that you painted that picture a figure of speech. Yes I reread what you wrote and yes I still took it that way sorry. You are right it may be a part of the puzzle .Like i said i'm going to give it a try it worked for you and dan this season looks like ron and pap use some sort of tea-compost worm who cares what we call it sorry if you took it as a personnel attack tom ..mark

12/5/2006 2:00:00 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Well Owen I'm no expert on growing giant pumpkins and as a matter of fact I've never grown one. I do however hold several WR's for other giant fruits and veggies. The latest was this years 96.95 pound Kohlrabi. I did not use one drop of CT/ACT. Later Spudley.

12/5/2006 2:04:44 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

unkadan said "Dr Ingham is one of the creators of the "soil wood web" concept and clearly encourages the use of tea to support the mutifunctions that are required for a "productive web".

I agree entirely. I've read & followed Elaine's work for years. We communicated this summer about using ACT to control Fusarium.

On Point #6 regarding bacteria I will quote Ms. Ingham from a post she just made last week at here own message board. This was inreply to a guy who was using a Soil Soup brewer & thought he was making Compost Tea.

Read her response:

________________begin clip_____________________________

Hi Dirt Dog -

I noted that you use a Soil Soup machine......is that correct.

If that is true, let me note for you that all evidence points to the fact that you cannot possibly get the full set of organisms you need with soil soup.

You will get bacteria, and only part of the bacterial community desired. Soil soup is NOT compost tea.

Soil soup is......well, soil soup. NO evidence exists that I am aware that soil soup contains or allows the growth or survival of beneficial fungi (they do grow yeast, but those are NOT the fungi you want), beneficial protozoa, or beneficial nematodes.

continued

12/5/2006 2:20:28 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

You can get LIMITED benefit from soil soup, since you will get some bacteria that can grow in reduced oxygen conditions. But you would be better served to get and grow EM, since those are specifically beneficial facultative anaerobic bacteria, without potential contaminants.

If you don't get the full set of benefits, suspect that you aren't get all the organisms you need in the soil or on your leaf surfaces. Check the materials you are putting on to make sure you have the FULL foodweb.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc"

_____________________end clip__________________________

Likewise we are NOT brewing organic matter decaying bacteria like bacillus polymyxa in an Aerobic Compost Tea brewer.

Bacterial inoculants are a major part of my business so I'd better know about them.

12/5/2006 2:20:34 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

When we speak the words "Compost Tea" we should be saying "Aerobic Compost Tea" or "ACT" which is a valuable part of growing but is in no way shape or form the end-all solution to pest problem or soil science. It is a part of the big picture. Nothing more.

No one is going to use a Biti-Bobolator all by itself & brew up an effective batch of bacillus Subtilis for Fusarium suppression. The CAN use a low volume ACT spraying regime in conjunction with timely Bacillus Subtilis & Trichoderma drenches & get good suppression of Fusarium.

But we cannot call this technique a "compost tea" program & get away with it.

My point was that Tom's points were too general & vague with respect to bacterial production or inoculation.

But hey....Jim was trying to start a conversation & without a decent election cycle pending...now we have one. LOL

12/5/2006 2:29:12 PM

BillF

Buffalo, MN (Billsbigpumpkins@hotmail.com)

Owen this is just for you, I did not use CT this year or any pervious year. However, time permitting and the right stuff in your CT I'm sure it would really help the soil and the plant. However, this is another topic does the best plants always produce the biggest fruit?

Good post

12/5/2006 3:09:14 PM

Owen,,I'm crushed,,isn't 1175.5 close enough to get some credit here?

Heck it was my first year I'm still learning.

heh heh,,,

12/5/2006 3:20:52 PM

don young

wow-did tom get skinned alive here-tells how-some reasons why to try

12/5/2006 4:31:56 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Yep, ya noticed that too? I just tried to supply info that I have compiled from different sources on the web and got slaughtered by every know it all there is....
I say the proof is in the pudding.
And I want to personally thank Steve and Mark for addressing me personally.
And we wonder why some of the Big Guns don't post.

12/5/2006 4:36:06 PM

Andy W

Western NY

I think we'll see compost tea in wider use eventually. years ago, giant pumpkins were grown by pouring on the chemical fertilizers at incredible rates. eventually, as some growers saw that organic (or semi-organic) methods were cranking out equivalent weights or better, things began to shift. overall, things are still shifting, and the teas are a part of that.

as for my own personal experience, the closest i came was when i grew the 1407, i would leave some worm castings in the irrigation water barrel for a day or two before it was applied. no foliar teas, but i know some who have used it with amazing disease suppression.

next year, i'll get more involved with it if i can get the electric run out to the patch as planned.

12/5/2006 4:53:11 PM

Ron W.

Coventry RI USA

Wallace, Jutras. Macari all have used soil soup for the last few years with some great results. Will all use in 07.
Plants look "alive" after foliar spray. Over the last three years I have spoken with many leaders in this field. Dr's, Ingham, Linderman, Ribeiro and the makers of soil soup. All will tell you something different. I know for a fact Ingham does not agree with the makers of soil soup ( for reasons I will not comment on )For as many supporters of Dr. Inghams work, ( I have read her compost books and soil food web )you will find as many who dissagree.

12/5/2006 5:12:48 PM

Ron W.

Coventry RI USA

I will agree there are many misconceptions about compost tea. This winter we will make tea's and have them tested. Our compost tea brewers club will feature several tea's made by the committee. ( Wallace, Jutras, Macari, Palmer, Sperry, Rondeau )The one thing I think we can all agree on is if tea's are made correctly, the have many benefits. Soil soup also did wonders for our vege plants and flowers.

12/5/2006 5:21:49 PM

Mr.D & Me

ordinary,VA

so do i use ACT or not? lol

Thanks for the great post guys plenty to read and think about.

12/5/2006 5:22:34 PM

sludgepumpkin (Dan Hajdas)Mill fabric

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Ow...Tom....Jeez we even spoke on the phone & agreed on the matter of diversity.

Ron,
The key like everything else is balance. A biologically diverse "rhizosphere" is everything so bacteria, fungi, protozoa, etc are all important grazers.

Tom, I wasn't trying to slam you. I just don't want anyone to ever think that just Soil-Soup or just ACT alone is going to work ideally in all soils.

Soils are diverse. I don't know anyone who has paid the thousands needed to do a full bio-assay on their soil. However since their is no harm (known) from using all of these disciplines then we might just as well use them all. -ACT, Soup, manure teas, bacterial & Mycorrhizal inoculants combined.

12/5/2006 6:06:13 PM

Cheshire,Ma

I agree with Ron on making tea correctly.I have never made tea but I would like to try it next year. I work at a wastewater treatment plant and to keep our microorganisms healthy we have to maintain a certain amount of oxygen in the water. I have read that 5.5 -6 mg/l of dissolved oxygen should be maintained to make agood tea? I was wondering if anyone checks the oxygen levels as they are brewing tea.
I would think if a bunch of growers use the same recipe
we might be able to compare results better? I know the soils would be different but at least the tea would be the same?

12/5/2006 6:33:59 PM

Drew Papez apapez@sympatico.ca

Ontario

Does symbrew for agro k qualify as ACT. or is this different, we don't apply as a foilar but as a soil drench.

drew

12/5/2006 7:19:30 PM

Joze (Joe Ailts)

Deer Park, WI

Can I offer a couple of pennies??? Perhaps the differences in opinions above are purely a matter of semantics. Tom- thanks for the info. A nicely articulated description of the benefits of a BALANCED SOIL FOOD WEB. Aye, therein lies the rub. If you re-read Tom's 8 benefits, they are potential results of a BALANCED SOIL FOOD WEB, not necessarily the direct benefits of ACT application, as was the assumption made by Tremor. However, I do applaud Steve for playing devil's advocate, and appreciate the effort to provide factual information.

Folks, I think the answer as to whether ACT has a place in your garden comes down to a matter of logic. Does it make sense? Does it make sense in your garden? A couple hundred years ago, a few whackos thought the world was round. They didnt have any double blind, placebo-controlled published data to support their theory. What they did was follow logic, all the way around the globe. It just plain made sense. Enhancing the rhizosphere and phyllosphere with beneficial microbes makes sense. and we know ACT does this. There may not be a way make direct correlations to increased weights, that technology is years into our future, just like the navigations systems of today came as a result of those whackos 100's of years ago. Yes or no?

12/5/2006 7:22:04 PM

Big Kahuna 25

Ontario, Canada.

Guys you've really touched on all angles of this topic. The keys as I believe they relate to the AGP and the use of compost tea are simple.

I have come around to the new thinking of organics and teas as the wonder in small plot AGP growing. To the unbelievers doubt is the weapon of choice. Traditional NPKers will never understand the tools with which we grow. I asked a question a couple of weeks ago about possible harmful affects of over application of teas. There was not single negative post replied.

I do agree with Spudley. I'm no expert on growing anything. I believe if we treat the complete patch as a compost pile we will be far better off in the long run. In such cases you most likely do not even need teas or soups. An annual application of the right organic components and a sore back is all that could be required.

1. Get your soil pH close to neutral and well proportioned and then let it grow. (Notice Steve I did not say Balanced)

2. Restrict the usage of Phos. in excess of 100ppm (we want to help our little fellas thrive.)

3. Don't add lots of crap(NPK)like I did. It will take years to bring the soil back online.

4. Supplement with natural products whenever possible.

5. Brewed teas foliar do help the plants in moderation.

6. Drenches of teas and soups do help the plants in moderation.

7. Teas do not control PM alone, they can assist modern fungicides, milk and baking soda concoctions.

8. Add organic components and feed them critters molasses to eat their meal.

12/5/2006 8:03:36 PM

MontyJ

Follansbee, Wv

Uh, dayum!

I have been using compost tea in my garden for years with excellent results. Why does it work? Heck if I know. Do I care? No. I do know that last winter a lot of growers were asking me about my tea...how I made it, what was in it, how long was it brewed...and I noticed more than one of them broke the 1000 mark. Coincidence? Sure, could be. They also prepped their soil better in some cases. But I know of one grower in particular that already had pretty good patch prep, but after adding ACT (I'll add the "A" for Steve even though we should all understand that compost tea should always be aerobic) he shattered his personal best.

As far as soil soup and compost tea comparisons go, I don't know how soil soup is made. If it is anaerobic it's probably fungal in nature, if it's aerobic it's almost certainly bacterial. However, that all depends on the material used to create the tea to begin with.

I guess it all boils down to this: Try it, or don't. The choice is always up to you.

12/5/2006 8:03:56 PM

pumpkin kid

huntsburg,ohio

i haven't used it just build up my soil and use very little chemical fertilizer.Jerry

12/5/2006 8:55:02 PM

J. B. Williams

East Lyme CT.

Thanks, Jim for getting this conversation going. Just what I wanted to see. I think we must build the good soldiers in the soil and if compost tea is their vitmins or reinforcements teas can't hurt if properly made. Some things are beyond our knowing why are how.

12/5/2006 9:40:32 PM

Billy K

Mastic Beach, New York

when i went on my patch tour this summer(RI) i saw alot of soil soup buckets next to the patch's .. Ron / Dick are on the soil soup web site!!

12/5/2006 10:32:40 PM

CliffWarren

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Great wintertime discussion! Keep it coming... for every poster there are probably 5 or 10 lurking.

I'd like to recommend a book to all y'all: "The Truth About Garden Remedies, What works, what doesn't, and why", by Jeff Gillman. Interesting stuff. The author has done a lot of research, but isn't afraid to say, "I don't know", when that is appropriate.

He doesn't have a lot of great things to say about ACT, but he also admits that there is a lot to be learned. In the meantime, we might do well to treat some of our plants with it and not others, in the effort to learn.

Ultimately, I think it's like most things... if your situation NEEDS it, then you are filling a need and it will be a benefit.

12/5/2006 10:51:46 PM

Peace, Wayne

Owensboro, Ky.

Spudley, laboratory produced biological innoculants....this nu-B wants to know what you mean. Mycho?? Peace, Wayne

12/5/2006 11:20:11 PM

pap

Rhode Island

geez

12/6/2006 12:26:52 AM

owen o

Knopp, Germany

so my question was answered.

building up the soil with compost, manure, etc seems to be the most important part to this whole thing. getting a soil test and amending as recommended seems to be the next step. and using tea, with other things added besides just compost (worm castings, etc) obviously works for those that use it, but it is not the secret solve all soil problems solution as other HHs don't use it, ok, i am still not a soil expert, never will be, but i think this has been a good thread.

btw, i odered the book last night about soil soup, never in my wildest dreams did i think i would be doing something like that...lol

12/6/2006 1:07:15 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

For the record no one is "getting skinned alive" here. This isn't about shooting the messenger or attacking a person. This isn't personal at all & we shouldn't be so childish as to react as though it is.

It is the subject matter that deserves a good thrashing since folks still don't understand how ACT works. The vast majority of contributors to this thread seem to still be saying things like "we may never know why..." & other generally inaccurate things.

This is the largely the matter that Spudley speaks of.

But we do know how & why the teas work. The trouble is in the interpretation, marketing & legal aspects of WHAT is going on.

For instance it is illegal in New York to call ANY pest mitigating spray material "safe" regardless what it is. It is illegal in all 50 states to market a material for pest control unless it is registered as such (IE a pesticide).

continued

12/6/2006 1:57:08 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

We already know which bacteria control which diseases. There is so much data on this subject that some bacteria have been legally registered to control disease. This is only possible because the bacteria can be grown, dried & packaged with a guaranteed analysis so that a buyer & end-user knows exactly what they are using 100% of the time. Hence the performance of said treatment is predictable.

We also have ample proof that certain bacteria consume crop debris & other organic materials. We also know that molasses can accelerate this decay by stimulating said bacteria. Look at how long the various septic tank treatments have been on the market. The Exxon Valdez cleanup employed the use of oil eating bacteria so this isn't new data.

I have a customer who buys packaged bacterial pesticides. Using these for hire is legal. He has also added this material to his brewer (anaerobic) & grown the bacteria on by feeding it. Believe it or not this practice is ILLEGAL according to our state's DEP regulatory people if he is going to then use it to control a pest for hire.

It is known that ACT (when brewed right) contains nematodes & arthropods that accelerate the liberation of Nitrogen by their grazing activity. This isn't any different from side dressing with Calcium Nitrate or Urea except that many growers grossly over-apply synthetic Nitrogen & upset the soil balance.

continued

12/6/2006 1:57:34 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

It has also recently been cited that a proper tea will produce & leave behind a biofilm that (like milk, soap, neem & horticultural oils) makes an inhospitable environment for disease pathogens so protects a treated plant. Commercial fungicides are no different except that at high temperatures they can cause significant plant injury which many folks here have seen.

Some states are already talking about significant regulatory efforts to insure the safety of Compost Teas. Elaine's group has tested for e-coli. She has taken quite a bit of heat for her brutal honesty by those who would prefer to deny that harmful pathogens can be brewed by mistake. Their agenda sometimes gets in the way of good decision making.

The truth is that in the commercial arena all paid CT users should be licensed to brew & use teas. This is the best way to protect the integrity of the concept in the long term.

12/6/2006 1:57:43 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

There is & has been a certain element of agronomy & botany that abhors conventional "corporate agribusiness". They prefer the mystique & nostalgia that is often associated with home-brewed tonics.

As such any inoculant that is packaged & sold for profit gets a black eye in certain circles. Kinda silly I think but that's the way that it is.

12/6/2006 2:02:14 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Joe makes the a convincing summary by asking "does it make sense?"

Sure it does. But we shouldn't walk around proclaiming we don't know why. If we don't know how or why a tool works we really have no business using it. LOL

12/6/2006 2:06:30 AM

Roanoke Il

Great post

12/6/2006 6:36:33 AM

owen o

Knopp, Germany

"If we don't know how or why a tool works we really have no business using it."

Well, perhaps from your perspective Steve, but let's just say I use some form of tea next year, and I have healthier plants and set a new personal best. I probably will not understand why it works, but you can bet your last auction dollar that I have every business using it. I am trying to grow giant pumpkins, and at that, bigger then my neighbor, so if a majority of growers, that are growing AGs bigger then me, are using something, heck, I think you get my point.

I enjoy this post because I am learning so many things that I had no idea even existed about the soil, our plants and tea.

owen

12/6/2006 7:00:00 AM

Bears

New Hampshire

keep it coming- I love it!

12/6/2006 7:14:02 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Owen,

If we keep posting to threads like this one all winter then everyone should be experts by spring.....The ones who are still talking to each other that is. LOL

12/6/2006 7:22:48 AM

pap

Rhode Island

please allow me a last word.

steve is a tremendous talent when it comes to explaining how and why thing will or will not work. His explainations though quite deep at times i find to be very interesting.

Soil soup made correctly worked very well in the overall plant development and health phase of our plants growing process, as some have already stated in this discussion.

Some experts in the soil biology arena like it ,some do not. its all in who you have faith in and whos opinion you value

Is it a must have in your spray program ? nope
Was it responsible for a world record ? nope
Did our plants look refreshed after a spray of soup ? yep
Did our plants look way healthier this past season compaired to other seasons ? yep
Do i attribute some of this to a new patch ? yep
and some of this to the ingredients in the soil soup ? yep.
Would we use it again ? yep
Why? because we believe its a piece of the puzzle needed to
gain the maximum results for our plant and pumpkin.

The experts im happy to listen to, then make my own judgement.

pap

12/6/2006 7:46:42 AM

WiZZy

President - GPC

This is a great post, It is OK to say I dunno, IMO its whats motivates others to either share info or figure it out......I appreciate everyones comments here and will return back to "listen" somemore and learn! Thanks Folks....Keep it up......

12/6/2006 10:19:28 AM

Joze (Joe Ailts)

Deer Park, WI

Perhaps a less harsh reiteration of Steve's statement "If we don't know how or why a tool works we really have no business using it." could be "if we dont know how or why a tool works, learn about it before you use it." To this, i couldnt agree more.

Miracle Grow works. The gardener knows why. The educated gardener knows why and chooses to use it more wisely. Owen brings up a valid argument, if something works, everyone is entitled to use it! However, an ounce of prevention.....

Understanding the long term affects of any intervention is the key to successful gardening. Sure 100lbs of miracle grow may give you a WR this year but what about the effects of this next year?

The reason ACT "just makes sense" is because you can be fairly confident the long-term benefits of this modality are likely beneficial.

There are so many parallels between the plant "drug/supplement" world and the human "drug/supplement" world its scary. Our Miracle grow can be likened to a pharmaceutical drug, lets go with Ritalin for example. Does it work for ADD? Hell yeah. What are the long term effects? what are the side effects? Wouldnt you rather have your kids on a natural alternative that may not be quite as effective but carries none of the risk? Same goes for ACT. Its one "natural" alternative to plant drugs.

12/6/2006 7:55:52 PM

Bears

New Hampshire

Ironically, I was at an organic seminar today put on by UNH and one of the topics was organic form or disease management. Margaret McGrath of Cornell has done some test with compost tea with little to no effects with disease management. I can’t remember what disease it was, (maybe powdery mildew). She was very open to the ideal of CT being a viable solution to disease control but could not recommend based on the research. I was turned on to CT primarily for disease control more than nutrient value. The bulk of the science I have seen is suggesting “snake oil” to me. I can see it as a plus for soils that have been nuked to get some good critters introduced to the soil. Remember science is only as good as our observation skills. Do we really have the eyes as giant pumpkin grower to see what is happening on a micro level where all this science is happening? I know I am only making guesses with my patch. Is a 1502# pumpkin proof that it works to some degree? I still say giant pumpkin growers are Frankenstein scientists. But then again I don’t see any Cornell Phd or Nobel Prize scientist growing 1500# pumpkins

12/6/2006 10:08:19 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Remeber Jim....Those who can do. Those who can't teach.

12/7/2006 6:59:36 AM

I'm thinking "Frankenstein science" is required for these Frankenstein plants.

I agree wholeheartedly with pap's "The experts I'm happy to listen to, then make my own judgement" statement.

Until the ag schools start running research on Giants specifically. I'll settle for the results being shown in my patch and others that are using the "outside the box" techniques, seems that's what got this hobby where it is today.

As far as disease control and tea as a deterent, a healthy plant resists disease.
If a tea is used and the plant stays healthy does that mean it's from the tea? Quite frankly I don't care.

I would have to keep it in my plan,,,,,,,,,,and will.

12/7/2006 7:49:49 AM

Billy K

Mastic Beach, New York

Steve..isnt soil soup aerobic? there's an air blender that goes in the bucket..and produce's foam on top. ACT? little confused here..

12/7/2006 5:58:38 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

billy,

I've never used the SoilSoup brewer. I am only quoting the woman who founded the Soil Food Web Inc. Dr Ingham has tested every machine made & these were her findings.

From my own experience & that of commercial applicator who brew every day it takes more than a stream of bubble to make ACT. Perhaps the bubble aren't intended to aerate in the SS brewer. Some brewers rely on coarse bubbles to keep the tea moving.

"I noted that you use a Soil Soup machine......is that correct.

If that is true, let me note for you that all evidence points to the fact that you cannot possibly get the full set of organisms you need with soil soup.

You will get bacteria, and only part of the bacterial community desired. Soil soup is NOT compost tea.

Soil soup is......well, soil soup. NO evidence exists that I am aware that soil soup contains or allows the growth or survival of beneficial fungi (they do grow yeast, but those are NOT the fungi you want), beneficial protozoa, or beneficial nematodes.

You can get LIMITED benefit from soil soup, since you will get some bacteria that can grow in reduced oxygen conditions. But you would be better served to get and grow EM, since those are specifically beneficial facultative anaerobic bacteria, without potential contaminants.

If you don't get the full set of benefits, suspect that you aren't get all the organisms you need in the soil or on your leaf surfaces. Check the materials you are putting on to make sure you have the FULL foodweb.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc"

12/7/2006 10:03:46 PM

Ron W.

Coventry RI USA

Steve,

You should really know the history between Soil soup and Dr. Ingham before commenting on it.

Ron

12/8/2006 12:43:30 PM

Billy K

Mastic Beach, New York

Steve not yet , learning the pro's and con's..

12/8/2006 7:53:19 PM

docgipe

Montoursville, PA

See 'ya all in the spring. Ya all otter know you can't out talk the master spin master. Four years ago the spin was all science and no biological knowledge. Now I read he's been in bed with Dr. Ingram for years. Must have been a closet biologist. ]:o)

12/8/2006 9:12:06 PM

Brooks B

Ohio

I just ate some cheese,,, and I like it!

12/8/2006 11:27:22 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Ron,

As is usually the case in such things I'll wager that neither side is telling the whole story. LOL

Dwaine,

Exchanging a couple emails with the SFI staff hardly means sleeping with someone. Exaggerating the issue discredits your point.

For the record: I was using field collected & farm grown mycorrhiza in reforestation & tree culture as early as 1986 which is several years before any commercial inoculants were ever produced or packaged for sale. Never once have I said it doesn't work.

I have the good fortune of being a friend & former coworker & business partner with one of the finest re-foresters in this country. Tom has tree propagation patents (now expired) & we employed both mycorrhizal & bacterial inoculants on "dead soil" projects long before current book authors started profiting on the subject. We also treated tree seedlings with all manner of chemically & naturally derived hormones all of which accomplished more dramatic results than the inoculants in real field testing. The Patented processes & research my friend did was ignored until the patents expired but today both disciplines are employed by both International & Weyerhaeuser paper companies. tom didn't make a dime on his patents but the paper companies sure have.

None of this experience or history has given me cause to swear off chemical plant protectants. In my work as a consulting arborist I've watched chemically treated & Compost Tea treated plants die.

I've supplied & worked with the folks at NY Botanical Gardens for nearly 10 years. NYBG has the most eyes & best record keeping of all the clients I work with. They employ both disciplines & have about equal plant mortality overall.

One degree, two certificates, 4 occupational licenses, & 27 years of professional green industry experience (not counting the farm) has taught me that neither discipline alone answers all the needs of any type of plant.

Th

12/9/2006 2:13:23 AM