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Alaska

I'm wondering, do you think ACT is being used at the farms suspected of tainted produce? Food for thought??????? Later Spudley.

12/9/2006 2:00:54 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Don't know anything about the incidents you are referring to but E Coli is a common infection of calves stomachs and cow udders.
I advise growers not to eat manure no matter how good it looks.
Milk as a fungicide could probably do this.

12/9/2006 4:50:36 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

E. Coli has been associated with fresh animal manures at one of those Spinach farms in California. Right now there is a pretty major outbreak related to Taco Bell stores that were using vegetables from (again) California.

In the days ahead we should start to learn more about which farms the affected distributors was selling from.

If ACT is made properly then E. Coli would never be a problem. But if a haste to produce cheaply promotes a non-tested compost into the brewers...This is why some states want to certify the brewers & users of ACT when a marketable crop is being produced.

12/9/2006 10:34:54 AM

caro mi.

would you spray manure teas on strawberry plants and tomatoes plants ? is there a concern here ?

12/16/2006 8:19:10 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Spudley,

I've been giving this some thought lately. I personally doubt that ACT is going to be found in use by these farms. Not because ACT couldn't be implicated. But rather I believe the expense of using ACT is still beyond the reach of the farmer who bids on & is awarded the Taco Bell vegetable supply contract.

A professional colleague & friend brews a lot of compost tea & also has some advanced military training so...he has some serious concerns. His concerns center on what might be accidentally (or intentionally) re-grown in an ACT brewer.

E. Coli O157:H7 is the one that keeps coming up. It is most commonly found in the guts of cattle. Manure can be heat treated to kill the bad guys but this also kills the good guys. Proper composting at correct temperatures with correct turns might gradually shift from bad to good but as sure as some folks cheat on their taxes, not all composting is always perfect. We all know how to use a tissue but when we're in a hurry there can always be that one small booger that gets overlooked.

Brewing tea from compost that was accidentally tainted with E. Coli won't kill the bad guys. But will it re-grow more bad guys? Will Molasses feed the regrowth of dangerous pathogens?

YES.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=168430

12/17/2006 9:41:23 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

It's a public document so we can clip the details:

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Title: Effect of Molasses on Regrowth of E. Coli O157:h7 and Salmonella in Compost Teas

Technical Abstract: Compost water extracts (compost teas) are gaining popularity among organic growers, largely because of their disease suppressive activity when applied to foliage or soil. Production methods often include addition of supplemental constituents, particularly molasses, to stimulate plant-beneficial microbial populations. We have found that molasses amendments also favor regrowth of human pathogenic bacteria, raising public health concerns about potential contamination of treated crops, particularly produce intended for fresh consumption. Using disease outbreak strains marked with green fluorescent protein (GFP) and spontaneous antibiotic-resistance, we found that regrowth of Salmonella enterica serovar Thompson and Escherichia coli O157:H7 was positively correlated with molasses concentration. For Salmonella, regrowth was also dependent on the type of starter compost material used. Salmonella populations increased from 1 at time 0 to over 1000 CFU ml-1 in dairy manure compost tea with 1% molasses, and from 1 at time 0 to over 350,000 CFU ml-1 in chicken manure compost tea by 72 h. E. coli populations increased from 1 at time 0 to approximately 1000 CFU ml-1 in both types of tea by 72 h. Pathogen regrowth did not occur when molasses was eliminated or kept to 0.2%.

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Here is the key line:

We have found that molasses amendments also favor regrowth of human pathogenic bacteria, raising public health concerns about potential contamination of treated crops, particularly produce intended for fresh consumption.

12/17/2006 9:44:27 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

So as one would expect, if E. Coli was present in the compost used to brew ACT then E. Coli would be present in the finished tea. Unfortunatley, there could be even more E. Coli than when the brewer first got started.

It all speaks to using only first rate properly made compost from reliable sources. There is a move toward certifying all composts after a strict pathogen test but no amount of testing is ever going to reveal the name of every single species of bacteria in a compost pile.

Heat treated manures may be dead once certified "safe". They can then be re-inoculated with produced spores to created a better "designer compost". LOL

The other sensible option is to never allow cow manure into the compost pile that we use to make ACT.

Its a touchy subject that will continue to play out in the courts of popular opinion because the government is powerless to move as quickly as the media & the bloggersphere.

12/17/2006 9:52:22 AM

Western NY

Steve is right. these are major farming operations which likely don't even use compost like we know it. the outbreaks are often traced back to the irrigation system, and a wayward sick animal crapping near the water intake.

12/17/2006 3:25:09 PM

Montoursville, PA

Of the fifty million or so individual bacteria in a single grain of soil we know and have named only a handfull. If we applied ourselves to simply keeping the soil healthy instead of poisoned we would all be safer.

In my backyard I have every wayward wild animal and bird with the exception of elk existing in Pa. They all like and make supporting deposits to my garden patches. Add to this the neighborhood cats and dogs. This has been a fact for over fifty years. Added to the wayward poops I regularly add cow, horse, rabbit, llama, bat, chicken, turkey, pigeon and and whatever else may become available. So why haven't I poisoned my family, friends and neighbors at least once in the past fifty years?

There are thousands of farms, market patches and gardens in Pennsylvania run in a similar manor. Why are we not all dead?

My God I wonder how we live through this filthy unscientific untested and mysterious cult growing. I wonder why our farmer markets are growing and growing for more and more demanding and cooperating customers who prefer to not eat the traditional food supplies, of the big box grocers.
Certainly it would not be because the food is of better structure, color and taste. I just don't understand this movement which is alive and well.

Now we find that high percentages of the food we eat is being imported from where there is absolutely no testing or inspection. Shipping temperatures are not checked and shipping containers are not even opened let alone inspected before or after use and re-use.

Don't think for a moment that your eggs, milk and meat are closely guarded either. They might be nuked so they can lay in the case until dooms day.

Registrations and inspections have not proven to be the best all correcting answer either. Although not a single E Coli bacteria has been found within a single T.Bell restrurant the news releases from Government Sources has literally crunched if not killed the business.

12/19/2006 9:29:35 PM

Montoursville, PA

What is compost? Most commonly stated it is a mixture of greens, bowns, soil/minerals and manures that are or have been completely digested and turned towards humus. It is soft, crumbly usually dark brown when damp and smells like good clean earth. That is compost. It contains none, of the evidence, of it's original parts. If it does it is not yet compost.

Now we are being informed that Dairy Manure Compost Tea and Chicken Manure Compost Tea can cause problems. I agree because the here to fore mentioned do not exist as stated. In both instances the indication and specific reference is clearly manure tea and not finished compost.

Perhaps the major issue at hand is a gross inability to agree on simple terms and then standards consequently few if any simple clear directions can be determned. That is more or less exactly what the conclusions are in the most resent published studies or committee discussions. Nothing was cleared up of any significance.....Nothing! The take I get is best described with a question. "I know you are doing and saying a lot but specifically what are you doing and saying".

12/20/2006 4:06:28 PM

Roanoke Il

Doc you explain it quite well everyone with no clue is jumping on the Compost tea band wagon that have no clue in how to properly make compost or finish it properly..There lyes the danger. You most likely where tought bye your folks how to produce it properly. But I wouldn't recomend people puting compost tea in there garden veggies with out properly researching how it should be made poperly and when to properly apply it. Putting it on pumpkins or ornimentals no problems..

12/20/2006 4:34:39 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Here is a rather long diatribe by Elaine re the politics of E. Coli in Compost Tea.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/compostteas/Week-of-Mon-20020708/000310.html

12/21/2006 11:15:30 PM

Mocksville, NC

Manure in compost tea is asking for e-coli~ Since veg gardens do best on bacteria dominated soil it would bewise to concider greens, grass clipping compost, alfafa, well you get it. Browns in compost is fungi dominated, and yes Tremor i finished the book, they warn of use of manure in compost tea, Mark you know compost is finished when it is coal black ,no reconizeable pieces, no smell of ammonium or alcohol and it smells sweet,and earthly, if it doesn't it has gone anerobic, and not good to use, the sweet smell is the the bacteria actively at work,

1/14/2007 8:37:11 AM

Walkerton Ont

Ya how can i forget about that strain of Ecolie, it hit our town like a rock, killed 7 people, sickend over 2200 est, it was on tv all over the world. not a good thing

1/14/2007 10:37:37 AM

Walkerton Ont

was in our water

1/14/2007 10:38:29 AM

Montoursville, PA

None of the E Colie Fungi, of which there are many, can survive the high percentage, of oxygen created, in the aerobic tea process. It may be debated that they can or can not survive 115 degree compost heat for three days. The best way to assure that you could not get the bad E Colie Fungi would in fact be to get set up and use aerobic tea from earth worm casts or finished compost of any origin.

1/14/2007 5:58:47 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Dwaine speaks the truth. Use a dissolved oxygen meter for a while to get used to your results. 6PPM of dissolved oxygen between the critical 10-14 hour phase & no E-Coli will persist in the finished brew.

1/14/2007 7:07:03 PM

Montoursville, PA

The critical begining time period when the biological expansion or major increase in bacterial numbers can not be indicated as stated above (10 - 14hr. phase). It could be just a true at the ( 24 - 28.hr. phase) depending on the system being used to introduce the air to the water.

One might better know the symptoms of major biological expansion as the tan froth which is asperation of the critters. 'dem little frothy farts can not be without the proof being in the pudding. The expanded population can not exist at it's best without the visual evidence of presence.
...To much oil most likely from cold press fish product will defeat the efforts by depriving the oxygen which limits or totally prevents life all together.
....The size of the bubble and the cfm of the air flow determines the time neccessary to achieve the finished brew.
Only the best brewers can achieve a finish in about eighteen hours at seventy five to eighty degree water temperature. Three, four and even longer days is required by some systems. Then if a brewer can not be easily cleaned and it is not properly cleaned by the user an aerobic condition may not be created even in the best equipment.

I know or suspect licencing will eventually come to pass but this does not assure anything except the flow of tax dollars to those who never touched one of the systems and who would stroke their holy chins while saying the problem is fixed. Holding any licence proves one thing. That is that the person is educatable. That's all!! Once the licence is in place little or no further checking takes place and the licence holder may do or say anything he pleases.

1/15/2007 8:39:06 AM

Follansbee, Wv

"One might better know the symptoms of major biological expansion as the tan froth which is asperation of the critters. 'dem little frothy farts can not be without the proof being in the pudding." DocGipe

I'm sorry, but I can't take this any longer. That tan froth to which you refer is NOT the results of aspiration of "critters". If you take a bucket of water and add molasses to it then hit it with a hose it will produce the foam to which you refer. The tan froth is caused by increased surface tension of the water caused by the sugar content of the molasses. It is not 'dem little frothy farts. So there is no proof in that pudding.

Secondly, no matter how dirty a brewer is it can still produce aerobic tea. The fact is the concentration of oxygen in the tea determines whether it is aerobic or not. You can pass enough bubbles through a mud bath to make it aerobic.

Doc, I appreciate what you are trying to do, educate the public, but sometimes you hand out some really bad information.

(Continued)

1/27/2007 4:22:48 PM

Follansbee, Wv

On the other hand:

"None of the E Colie Fungi, of which there are many, can survive the high percentage, of oxygen created, in the aerobic tea process. It may be debated that they can or can not survive 115 degree compost heat for three days. The best way to assure that you could not get the bad E Colie Fungi would in fact be to get set up and use aerobic tea from earth worm casts or finished compost of any origin." DocGipe

I agree with this almost completely. The part I disagree with is "finished compost of ANY origin". A slipshod composting operation could certainly allow e. Coli to get through. The point? KNOW YOUR SOURCE!


Something else in this thread stands out to me:

"the sweet smell is the the bacteria actively at work,"-RogNC

Compost doesn't have a "sweet" smell, but rather a lack of a "sour" smell. Any smell that might be considered "sweet" isn't caused by bacteria anyway. Most likely it is from the alkaline content of a pH balanced compost. Years ago, before the days of lab tested soils, old farmers used to actually taste their soil. A sour tasting soil was too acidic, a sweet tasting soil was more alkaline.

(Continued)

1/27/2007 4:23:16 PM

Follansbee, Wv

As far as compost tea producing e. Coli, sure it can. The trick is to boost the O2 content quickly (the critical 10-14 hour phase) so the beneficial bacteria populations are increased to a point that e. Coli cannot compete.

This statement by DocGipe is just plain wrong:

"The critical begining time period when the biological expansion or major increase in bacterial numbers can not be indicated as stated above (10 - 14hr. phase). It could be just a true at the ( 24 - 28.hr. phase) depending on the system being used to introduce the air to the water.

Waiting 24-48 hours to introduce sufficient O2 into the system could allow anerobic bacteria a chance to multiply well ahead of the aerobic bacteria. While these bacteria will die once the O2 content comes up, e. Coli will not. It is very adaptable and can survive an aerobic environment if competition is low. Which is exactly what would happen if Dwains timeframe was used.

As a side note, e. Coli is present in high numbers in every human digestive tract. It's necessary for our survival. But for goodness sake...WASH YOUR HANDS after...well, you know.

1/27/2007 4:23:25 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Soil Foodweb Inc did some very thorough testing by using kniwn e. Coli compost to make teas. The anaerobic & low-aerobic teas did have e. Coli in them.

As Monty & I have both now pointed out, raising the Dissolved Oxygen to 6ppm at the 10-14 hour stage of brewing knocks the e. Coli out. Waiting longer than this permits the e.Coli to grow.

I suppose using a D.O. meter is almost mandatory in some cases since the cost & time of testing finished teas is more than most CT brewing gardeners will bear.

1/29/2007 7:47:44 AM