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Pittsburgh, PA

I'm interested to hear instances of people not using mycorrhiza and what weights were achieved without it. Also, like to hear what people are using in their vine burying mix.

I normally use a mix of WOW Soil and Plant Booster, WOW Pumpkin Pro and Azos. Wondering if my funds would be better spent elsewhere? TIA

12/4/2019 11:30:59 AM

Muddy Waters

If you dont use mycorrhiza you will only get smaller roots which will equal smaller fruits.The only question is how much is already in your soil? You dont know & the test to find out would coast you hundreds of dollars..Your question is basically equal to a race car driver asking what if I use a lower octane gas? Will I get the same results? My humble opinion ? Is NO you will not do the same or better with out it.

12/4/2019 7:33:11 PM

Massachusetts

To answer your question the largest pumpkin grown to date in North America was grown without any mycorrhiza.

12/4/2019 8:59:28 PM

Cottonwood Heights

What Tom K said.

12/4/2019 9:05:17 PM

Plainville, Connecticut 06062

There has never been a study to my knowledge to prove one way or the other if the benefits are greater using Mycorrhiza or not. I would think a lot depends on how much your soil naturally has. I do know however that a great grower Steve Geddes from New Hampshire in the 2018 growing season grew the largest pumpkin in the world that year 2,528 pounds without using any Mycorrhiza at all in his patch. As a matter of fact Mr. Geddes in his write up in the SNGPG December newsletter issue 2018 states that he does not use Mycorrhiza or any other products buried under his secondaries or Main vines! What works for one grower may not work to well for you or other growers so keep that in mind. Pick yourself up a copy of the December newsletter it is very interesting and may change your outlook on future growing.

12/4/2019 9:07:54 PM

Cottonwood Heights

Also not all types of mycros live in all type of soil.
Mycros is all around. Still a lot of misinformation, and learning to be done I think before I would say the use is better than not. I didn’t use it last year and had a personal best.

12/4/2019 9:09:22 PM

Whidbey Island

If someone has used it for several years, it would stand to reason that the soil has an inoculation of the fungus and adding more may not help.

True, there are no studies showing mycorrhiza produces bigger pumpkins, but there are numerous studies in other plants proving improved plant growth and crop yields.

Ultimately it has to be up to you to decide.

12/4/2019 10:10:57 PM

Grittyville, WA

As far as I know the world record carrot and tomato were in soil that was myco-healthy. I guess for pumpkins the soil texture and moisture and the natural myco must be a bigger factors than adding purchased myco wishfully?

12/5/2019 12:12:47 AM

Dorset UK

The best Marrows and cucumbers for this season were grown without it

12/5/2019 3:17:56 AM

Netherlands

My WR squash, WR marrow and at the time Euro record pumpkin were all grown without myco.
It depends on what is already in your soil. What can survive your winter and digging/rototilling methods.
Not all types of myco will survive in your soil and lots of commercial mycos contain strains pumpkins can't profit from.

12/5/2019 3:30:58 AM

Muddy Waters

Regardless it can only help it wont hurt your numbers

12/5/2019 7:42:59 AM

Muddy Waters

With good mycorr the pumpkins grown may have got bigger? Cant be proven either way

12/5/2019 7:44:16 AM

Muddy Waters

I couldn't get a pumpkin to the finish line in 2010 & 2011 due to disease.2012 stated using Great White & grew my first 1000 lber 1478. Then in 2013 grew the 1317 & 1326. 2014 used Advanced Nutrients over priced brands & grew a 1947.5. I also loosen my soil with sand & other products.I think looose soil is half the battle. Beneficial will make your soil healthier.I dont sell products any more so I dont have a motive here.Im just a believer in Beneficial.I would use Rons strain in the WOW label if i were you Jay it can only help.As we kill some of it every time we till & spray chemicals.

12/5/2019 7:57:45 AM

Muddy Waters

research can bend either way and is not conclusive only theory.Beni Meier grew 3 WR in 1 season using Beneficials

12/5/2019 8:39:18 AM

Guelph, Ontario

The interactions of plants and mycorrhiza is interesting. The biggest benefits have been shown in depleted, low nutrient soil in labs. Just read a study where the soil mix used was 1/3 of soil mix with the est including filler. The benefits are best for soil low in nutrients, specifically phosphorous. A secondary benefit are tolerance of drought. So additional survival in poor growing conditions. I doubt the benefits from lab transfer to a situation with high nutrition and lots of watering.

12/5/2019 9:25:45 AM

Colorado

To follow up on jays question.What are "must use" ingredients for vine burying mix. For fertility,large root development -disease suppression. I get lazy half way through season and don't use anything but moist soil to bury.

12/5/2019 1:49:57 PM

Nampa

My opinion on amendments for the vine bury is that it's a great place to add what is lacking in your soil. I like to add some beneficials for the same reason I add them overall. If you are low in micronutrients you can add some to your vine bury mix. It's a great spot for root interception and for root improvements. The most important thing though is to bury it and get some roots. If your patch is pretty ideal and already heavily ammended, I don't think you need to add much or anything for a vine bury mix.

12/5/2019 5:44:48 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

Lots of interesting views here. Last year Cecil Weston was kind enough to run my soil test samples through the soil fertility spreadsheet and I followed his recommendations exactly when applying my amendments. Beat my PB by 200 lbs last season. Thanks Cecil. Hopefully I’ll be able to take another step forward next year by getting my soil more balanced and thought the money spend on Mycorrhiza for vine burying might be better spent on a new watering system or something else maybe.

12/5/2019 10:42:23 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I mix Wallace Mycorrhizae, Holland Bio Endogrow, Jobes Organics and Espoma Starter plus. I get a mix of myco and beneficial bacteria species on everything: giant and field pumpkins, long gourds and watermelons. It gets some mild nutrients right where the roots can get to it quickly. Sometimes I add some Osmocote for a long term slow release of fertilizer. The gourds and watermelons just get it mixed in the soil all around the planting hole where the roots will get to it. I have only broken 1000# on the giants twice. This year we hit 167.5 and 184.5 on the watermelons and I did grow the state record long gourd a few years ago. We have had disease troubles, critter damage and really rotten weather the past 5 years as well. Too cold in April through June, then too hot. Too much rain mixed with long dry spells.

12/5/2019 11:19:26 PM

Muddy Waters

I rarely if ever add mycorrhiza to a bury mix. I water it in every 3=4 weeks .So much easier.I just bury vines with my garden soil.Just to keep it clear. Nice post Jay

12/6/2019 8:30:33 AM

Guelph, Ontario

When you do lots of different things, and get improvement, there is no way you can ascribe contribution of any single ingredient to end result. That the 2528 Gedas was grown without Myk says it all

12/6/2019 10:37:42 AM

Boscawen, NH

Since I've been mentioned in a few posts I decided I would weigh in. I think Chuck (irischap)explained it well when he pointed out that the research shows that myco is a benefit in low P conditions and low moisture conditions. If a grower is ensuring adequate moisture levels and adequate amounts of soluble nutrients it is unlikely that any benefit will be seen by using it. I do suggest to growers that may not water frequently and are not consistent with ensuring that their plants have soluble p available that myco would "likely" be of some benefit.

12/6/2019 2:30:42 PM

Boscawen, NH

I stopped using mycorrhizae about 8 years ago after the NH club had a presentation done by a professor that had just completed his PhD. with a focus on soil microbiology. After hearing about the frequency of our feeding and watering he explained that he was quite sure that we were not really seeing benefits from the application of commercial myco products.

12/6/2019 2:38:37 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

Thanks for chiming in here Steve. From your comments and experience, it seems to me that using mycorrhizae may not be worth the added expense for me. Kinda on the same topic, anybody using rooting gel when vine burying?

12/6/2019 11:28:02 PM

Grittyville, WA

Willemijns methods should be mentioned in this thread. Correct me if I am wrong but he used a municipal compost for burying and had his soil sterilized a year or two prior but then reintroduced beneficials like azos. Not sure if he reintroduced myco. I believe his chemical fertigation was an important aspect of his WR grow. If the needed chemicals are plentiful and readily available then a monster is possible.
The flipside is I am fairly sure I have good amounts of natural myco I have seen it on roots under a microscope. I may have myco but I wouldnt say I supercharge them with water or fertilizer. If myco alone could grow a record pumpkin then I would have a shot. But based on my results it certainly takes more than just myco. Nevertheless I do think the wow paks with myco helped some of my tomatoes... I have to say that it may be fickle, in terms of which situations it will be a benefit. It seems like it could be a consistently useful tool, but less useful when confronted with 10 pHd's worth of variables that can un-optimize any benefit.

12/7/2019 3:50:58 AM

Muddy Waters

So before we totally discredit Mycorrhizae combined with other beneficial as this will be the knee jerk reaction from many.So there is no value in having healthier soil? I had all kinds of disease issues before mycorr.Im still convinced the use of commercial mycorrhizae kept my disease under control & helped me get to the finish line on 2 State records.So healther soil does not equal bigger pumpkin? I would like to talk to your professor Steve & ask him this question.Can you get me a email? Mark@waorldwidegiantgrowers.com

12/7/2019 8:01:10 AM

Vancouver Washington

I need your home mailing address , while your at it Steve. I have something for you. Steve Handy shandy4757@gmail.com

12/7/2019 8:18:58 AM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Super good thread
Elaborating on this, Steve is spot on with everything I have found as well.
When you have your patch firing on all 12 cylinders your benefits for each addition can be minimal in the grand scheme of things. BUT each thing you add or do will up your percentages of getting to the top. What percentage is the use of mycos, is it 5% maybe 1%. It can be 10%. You will never know for sure but it will be a positive.
Taking 50 pounds of myco and adding it to a patch that is suffering from poor drainage, too much clay, shade from trees, low organics, it will not make much of a difference for you. But when you have decent soil, decent sun light, etc mycos will help you. Mycos will help with root health, it will help as Bubba says with disease spread. It will help with nutrient uptake.
It will never not help you. You just can't rely on it as the magic beans to grow the world record if that's the only thing you do.
Is there a possibility that Steve very well could have been 150 pounds heavier by using Myco's?? Sure could be, I don't think we will ever know that answer for sure, I would take that bet though. Its a relatively cheap addition that can give you a boost.

12/7/2019 1:41:54 PM

Ireland

To understand the benefits/negatives of AMF and other biological products across so many sites, soil types, genotypes and then the influence of specific plant husbandry practices each grower employs it would take a huge effort. To do a proper study on Atlantic Giants would be near on impossible unless huge funding was given.
The disease reduction effect could be due to priming of plant defences which is a well known benefit of AMF.
If it was me, when using biologicals. Just go with a variety of them, inoculate as early in the plants life as possible and re-introduce through-out the season to top-up on good guys.

12/8/2019 2:57:19 PM

Guelph, Ontario

There can be some priming of the plant defense system. This is called Systemic acquired resistance (SAR) All it takes is one infection which will spread the resistance to all plant tissues. It can happen in minutes to several hours.

The MYCOS will be in soil, if you have grown any Curitiba there previously. Adding lots will not be of any extra SAR then one infection.

There are other ways to induce SAR, such as a spray of Salicylic Acid. Which is readily available,

12/8/2019 8:11:48 PM