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Kutztown, PA

Can anyone share views/reasoning (non-anecdotal) behind purposeful choices to self vs sib pollinate? Perhaps advantages or disadvantages of each?

1/30/2022 10:52:09 AM

Germany

Main purpose is to create a cross of the plants with highest potential. If you (when it would be too late) find that only one of your plants was a really aggressive one (also in terms of fruit growth), and you think that this must have been a genetics thing (because you treated all of your plants the same way), then you might call yourself a lucky one if you self-pollinated this baby, because you used pollen from one of your best plants on the female of one of your best plants. However, there´s always some risk when self-pollinating that genetic problems might be recessive (and thus might be hidden in the genetics of this plant), and self-pollinating bears the risk that 25% of the seeds will then reveal this genetic problem. The genetics might, however, contain features which a dominant, and which caused the favorable performance of this plant and fruit. Then, self-pollinating also has the potential to refine those traits.

1/30/2022 11:16:16 AM

Germany

...features which are dominant...

1/30/2022 11:17:38 AM

Plymouth, MN

Self has the highest chance of fixing traits (good or bad).

1/30/2022 12:09:19 PM

Jericho Vermont

I prefer to self as I agree with cjb's comment. If the plant produces what you are hoping for it can be a homerun and if not it is a pretty much a strike out.

1/30/2022 12:11:58 PM

Grittyville, WA

Research hybrid vigor and homozygous vs heterozygous inheritance. There are indeed anecdotes from the pumpkin world that support the idea that pumpkin genetics are indeed similar to other plants in this regard.

1/30/2022 1:45:23 PM

Kutztown, PA

I have a handle on the genetics, i.e. vigor/homo/hetero. I guess my bottom line questions is why someone might choose a self vs a sib. I think a sib cross would be a little less risky and allow for at least more vigor than a self.

1/30/2022 4:40:36 PM

Grittyville, WA

I think thats a bit optomistic. In humans... x sib would be the most risky pairing, as far as creating non-conforming off types. I dont like the idea of the x sib much unless you had multiple unique freaky traits that you were trying to preserve or amplify.

1/30/2022 5:37:14 PM

Syracuse, NY

Believe me, if they perfect cloning someday, I want another ME and not another SIBling! LOL! If you pollinate your pumpkin from its own plant, at least you are starting with an EXACT copy of the genetics therein, verbatim. Every seed is different, so every SIBLING is respectively different as well. EVERY TIME YOU (whoops) cross anything with anything you are jumbling up the genetic makeup of the result as opposed to that of the original. Hand me a Rubik's Cube and I'll show ya, lol. Sibbing is 'close, with MAYbe a cigar', and ANY type of crossing may result in desired characteristics...which may have also been the results with a thousand other pollinators, but whom has the time? I hate 'close enough' but, sometimes...eg

1/30/2022 6:54:32 PM

Syracuse, NY

PS---some pollinations result from one plant having a feem on it and no other than THE other has any males upon it. There is certainly nothing WRONG with Sib pollinating, nor is it 'frowned upon'; We're just discussing it, at just the right time of the week!---eric g

1/30/2022 7:05:33 PM

Diamond, Ohio

Most people don’t grow more than one of the same plant. Hence more selfs.

1/30/2022 7:42:13 PM

Lloydminster/AB

The problem with selfing is that you may have to grow out a good many of its seeds to find the pumpkin that has the characteristics that you wanted locked in. Once you have found it they will of course be locked in.
“Self-pollination results in splitting the crop's gene-pool into independent homozygous lines. Variation is thus structured in the form of numerous true breeding cultivars”

1/31/2022 12:36:26 AM

Lloydminster/AB

I only do because it because have to. Sometimes I have a plant very far ahead and there just isn't any other pollen.

1/31/2022 12:50:15 AM

Western NY

Dibble is correct - for every sib cross that gets made, there's about 18 self crosses the last few years.

I usually try to make a sib cross when I have the chance, I'm not sure why other than I figure I probably won't have the opportunity to again.

1/31/2022 9:34:05 AM

Plymouth, MN

Another way to think about it is that any time we bet on a cross, we're hoping that both parents have the best possible genetic potential.
For X crossed with Y (whether an outcross or a sib), how many of these crosses are actually plants that grow massive (say 1900-2000+ lb fruits) versus genetic potential (e.g. one of the parents grew a smaller fruit for whatever reason)?
For selfed fruits, you know exactly who the daddy is without having to do a lot of research.

1/31/2022 11:42:53 AM

Kutztown, PA

Gritty - "Big" could be a "Freaky Trait" to preserve and or amplify too. It sounds to me like the choices are generated as a matter of convenience most of the time. I only grew one last year and of course it was a self. Andy grew at least two, one being the 2200 and did a sib x sib because he had the chance. This year I'm planting four but no sibs so they'll all be selfed or crossed. It does make since that it's more a matter of what's available at the time I guess.

1/31/2022 11:45:46 AM

Kutztown, PA

PS - The only reason I know that Andy is because I bought a 2200 Saturday.

1/31/2022 1:17:39 PM

Syracuse, NY

An absolute BEAST in person...and in our imaginations (the 2200, lol) - eg

1/31/2022 1:40:01 PM

Grittyville, WA

Yes the idea would be to hone in on mutations or recessive genes that would change the OTT and thickness (% heavy) or affect the growth period or the maximum daily gains. Most seeds have 2k potential now, it seems. Its an interesting guessing game as to which seeds might have 3k potential.

1/31/2022 3:32:55 PM

Kutztown, PA

% Heavy does seem like the right path I think, says the Newbie pumpkin grower. Don't you agree though, that due to the asymmetrical shapes of some big ones % heavy guesses could definitely be just that, i.e. guesses. I think I've looked at photos of most of the pumpkins over 2400 lb. and they're not exactly spherical. As pumpkinpal 2 would say, some of them look down right "Beastly". Take the 2520 Schmit. How could you get an accurate OTT from that? My brain is telling me that the fewer data points you have for pumpkins in that weight category the more likely OTT, thus % heavy could be skewed.

1/31/2022 4:13:08 PM

Massachusetts

The last 'selfed' seed to grow a world record was back 10 years ago when the 2009 Wallace broke the 2000 pound barrier. A significant accomplishment for sure. But I'm thinking "what have you done for me lately?" Lots of great selfed crosses have been made in those 10 years. I'm skeptical.

1/31/2022 4:16:06 PM

Massachusetts

My understanding of genetics says that we should be sibbing a number of the identical best pumpkins with the best traits with their siblings. Then choose the offspring that demonstrate the traits we really like and self them. This requires grower(s) that can grow a bunch of these sib crosses or some collaborative effort. When you sib you can also accentuate negative traits. Thats why the initial 'selection of the fittest' is most important. We as a group are not doing anything like this. Therefore the way we do sibbing is no more than a crapshoot. Like selfing, only one sibbed pumpkin has grown a WR in the last 10 or so years despite many nice sib crosses. Again I'm skeptical that we are doing anything with our method of sibbing.

1/31/2022 5:26:57 PM

Colorado

A lot of experienced growers wont try selfed seeds because funny things have happened with many selfs which looked great on paper.It will be interesting what the 2702.9 produces and what heavy hitters grow it in 2022.As mentioned theres many more selfs than sibs out there.

1/31/2022 5:49:55 PM

Grittyville, WA

X selfs have played an important role in building up the best crosses... 1725 Harp, 1625 Gantner, 1756 H/J, and now the 2112 Skinner. We havent recently had a the WR be X self, unless Meier did one, was his 2328 x sib? I'd have to check this. If the 2624.6 had been x self, I think that would have accelerated things a bit.

1/31/2022 8:52:05 PM

Kutztown, PA

I think Tom K is on to something. I'm not sure there's enough data out there to even make a decision what to pollinate with.

You simply cant grow enough pumpkins to make an educated selection. Even if you could generate enough data you'd have to have a collaborative effort similar to the "Human Genome" project - Well maybe not that big :) Really, I think the best you can do is go with heavy x heavy.

2/1/2022 9:00:44 AM

How many world records have grown world records?
What percentage of pumpkins are selfed or sibbed as that can affect their chances just because of sheer numbers, Yes or no?

2/1/2022 9:51:08 AM

Western NY

That's a good math question - are the top pumpkin(s) from each year representative to the amount of selfed seeds being produced? I'd guess it's close.

2/1/2022 10:14:01 AM

Kutztown, PA

Of course if we knew everything in advance this wouldn't be fun anymore.

When I was trying to decide what to grow this spring I developed a point system assigning points to different attributes of seeds/pumpkins. It eventually drove me to write an article which I submitted to GPC and PGGPA incase they wanted to use it for a newsletter. Some here might like to read it. If you're interested let me know and I'll email it to you. It'll probably get some smiles out of you.

2/1/2022 2:37:01 PM

Kutztown, PA

PS - if you don't want to read the article, I posted some scores of seeds I have based on my "feel good" system in my growers diary.

2/1/2022 3:49:25 PM

Plymouth, MN

It's an interesting question a data nerd with free time should look into. You'd have to define what a "top" pumpkin is. 2000+? Only about 150 grown since '13, with a bias towards more recent years. Trick would be getting a good sense of exactly how many selfed seeds are grown each year--it's easier to tell how many top pumpkins are selfed progeny, but you have to dig a bit more to figure out the maternal pedigree and the GPC data upload quality isn't great (e.g. variation in name upload, differences in half-pound, etc).

The sample isn't entirely random, either, since a lot of growers are biased towards growing proven seeds and you see the same mother seed represented more than once in a lot of the top fruit.

2/1/2022 4:48:55 PM

Diamond, Ohio

I’d like to read it garwolf. Kisamore.2@gmail.com

2/1/2022 6:49:37 PM

Take the dominant producers( super seeds?) that come along every few years 2183,1885 probably will be,2145 2009, 1725,1385 and you guys know more back before the 1725, there is probably just as good of chance percentage wise of that super seed being a selfed seed as opposed to hybrid. Same probably would hold true for the good but not in those seeds category.
Would take a lot of researching to do a proper assessment

2/1/2022 7:11:48 PM

Zimmerman, Minnesota

Well regardless of what we think we should be doing.... the numbers speak for themselves..... in 40 years we have gone from 459 pounds to 2702 pounds! That incredible and I don’t know if plant scientists could replicate that! So we are doing something right whether we self, sib, or outcross.

2/1/2022 11:27:17 PM

Kutztown, PA

Dibble, I sent it to you. Heavy Line x Heavy Line seems like a good strategy to me.

2/2/2022 9:49:31 AM

Indiana

I would like a copy as well. toddfriermood@gmail.com Thanks.

2/2/2022 11:51:11 AM