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formerly RGG

Last year I got into a friendly argument on this forum with MMM. I think I said watermelon plants need unlimited room to expand in order to reach their greatest potential.James thought that a little silly I think and recommended a amount of some few hundred square feet.James you are completely right and I stand corrected once again.Smoky mtn pumpkin is probably the best grower in the world and he limits vine size. I am on here then to ask if anyone reading this has experimented with plant size enough to be able to recommend a size of plot that would be optimal.I think if unlimited growth is allowed the leaves outgrow the roots and the plant is struggling just to maintain. But if the amount of top is limited then the roots are able to produce more than is needed to sustain growth and so is able to provide well for a swelling fruit.If that is wrong someone please explain to me exactly why it is good to trim plants to limit them to a certain amount of top.

2/26/2011 10:16:41 PM

formerly RGG

I will trim my plants this year. I am just uncertain how much footage I should limit them to. So what's your opinion?

2/26/2011 10:19:15 PM

Muddy Waters

Its all theory at this point!Try what you think is right! It may prove to be best method out there!Nobody has all the answers!Remember size doesnt Matter!lol

2/26/2011 10:54:37 PM

formerly RGG

I think it all starts with the roots. If you have a very healthy and extensive root system then a very healthy vine will follow. So control size but remember that if the root system is good enough then a little larger vine might be better.

2/26/2011 11:58:46 PM

Western PA

Great question TD ! I myself do not have experience to answer on optimal plant size.

I grew pumpkins for the first time last year and I witnessed the root system stretching as far as the plant growth, over 20 feet in 3 directions ! The roots extending very far were the small hair like roots.

My question to add to yours , for the experienced growers is:
Will the root systems do the same as AG pumpkin plants, (be as long and far as the top growth)?

2/27/2011 9:27:40 AM

formerly RGG

Thanks for the input Zappa. Well, if that is true then a grower could possibly use a planting area prepared for hungry roots as much as 40' across (20 feet in each direction).So I am possibly looking at giving the roots more room to grow than the vines.But then I don't think roots from different vines running together would hinder each other as much as vines competing for sunlight would.That is at least if there is enough moisture and nutrients available for all plant roots involved.

2/27/2011 9:39:29 AM

Muddy Waters

Yes Zappa & beyond the plant,I always consider the root system behind the plant,I dont like backing up to my lawn,as it does not have the fertility of my patch,I would rather start plant in center of garden so roots can grow 40 feet & get full effect of great soil,I never till to close to plant,If 6 feet out in 1 direction,I wont till 6 feet behind stump,I see people chopping there roots with tiller.these roots can grow 60 feet 1 way.

2/27/2011 10:03:16 AM

Western PA

Handy, I grew melons for the first time last year. I mentioned this in a few other posts. The big mistake that I made last year with my melons, was that I put them in close to the edge of my patch. I will agree with you that they should be put in toward the center of the patch to get the roots growing well in all directions. I was also stepping on roots when I was watering by hand.

I am going to treat my melon plants just like AG pumpkins this season, with walking boards, and covering the stump with something.

TD, I can't see a problem with melon roots running together from other plants.
Some of the top pumpkin growers like Quinn Werner ,put plants in back to back.

2/27/2011 10:34:43 AM

Fenton, MI

Here is my 2 cents on plant size. I never let a plant grow bigger than 15 x 30 feet. I have had plant's as small as 6 x 12 feet and they grew melons over 200#. The roots will go as far as the top of the plant and then some.
Walking mats help for getting up to your plant's.

At the 1 of Aug i stop my plants ( melon should be about 30 days old. ) This is a every day thing to do. I let some vines start at the trunk in sept. but only let them get about 5 or 6 feet long.

The plant that my 255# was on was 6'x 18' I am not saying that is the best way to grow melons but it works of me.

2/27/2011 12:39:52 PM

formerly RGG

Thanks Marvin, that was very helpful.

2/27/2011 1:42:11 PM

Muddy Waters

I may plant my melons back to back but off center a few feet in center of patch to make them more aggressive!!

2/27/2011 7:04:15 PM

Watervalley Ms

Some of my plants have been 15'x50'; the roots where to the end of the plant so watch out for roots when you prune plants.I am planing on pruneing my plants& maybe try 1or2 back to back

2/27/2011 7:52:48 PM

Bowdon, GA

I have been trimming mine ,but not small enough. I was suprized to see how much less sqft SMP was using compared to mine. Roots are very shallow too. Marvin I noticed the measurments. What shape is that rectangle or triangle shape? Is the growth from the stump in sept. to replace aged leaves in the center?

2/27/2011 10:48:34 PM

Fenton, MI

Holloway: yes i like to replece about 50 to 80 leaves. They get old fast. Plant size 15' wide 30' long with the stump in the center. Thats what i like but don't always get it.

2/28/2011 1:47:21 AM

Muddy Waters

Is that solid plant 15x30 450 sg feet of ground cover?? or just several vines that lenghth??

2/28/2011 6:50:27 AM

formerly RGG

Jake, I can't speak for Marvin but I know that Chris allows his vines to get thick within the space allotted so they cover the allowed space very well.

2/28/2011 8:05:27 AM

Watervalley Ms

Is it possible to prune the plants in the south the same way?

2/28/2011 8:31:15 AM

sevierville, Tn

I agree with Marvin, the roots go farther then the vines at all stages. They grow faster then the vines !

2/28/2011 3:42:48 PM

sevierville, Tn

Jerry, Yes i would work to keep the plants in the 200-300 sq ft range.

2/28/2011 3:47:32 PM

Bowdon, GA

Thanks guys, I also made some soil ajustments this year to hopefully balance it a little. I had too much going to the plant.

2/28/2011 4:21:20 PM

Watervalley Ms

Thanks Chris & thanks to all the growers for sharing.

2/28/2011 8:16:39 PM

formerly RGG

Sharing is what this forum is all about.

2/28/2011 8:29:59 PM

Rochester, Minnesota

I normally just let my plants go, but I think I will be pruning them back this year, because otherwise, they just get crazy for length. My watermelons end up owning the garden by mid August.

3/1/2011 10:54:25 AM

formerly RGG

James it seems to me there is very good reason for pruning vines back at some point. It seems to increase melon size. No one knows exactly why it does this though.But if the owner of the world record prunes then I feel compelled to follow suit. I am just not to sure how aggressive to be or when to start. I think a lot of experimenting need to be done to determine what exactly works best. And it may be what works best down south may not be the best up north. Or even what works best in my patch may not be what works best in my neighbors patch. I think it is an eye opener that Marvin Mitchell grew his 255 on a very small vine and Chris Kent grew the world record on a very restricted vine size. There just has to be something to this. I think as more growers learn to control vine size and as the genetics get better competition will get tougher and the average melon weight will get heavier and heavier.

3/1/2011 11:19:43 AM

Rochester, Minnesota

Oh I agree, and it will help me retain some additional control over my garden. My kids have referred to my garden as the Little Shop of Horrors towards the end of the season, and I think I may have seen a cat go in and never come back out.

The problem I have is if I plan for 300 sq ft, which might be 15 x 20, just now am I going to get that darn plant to grow in a rectangle?

3/1/2011 4:51:55 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

TD, (and awl) quick ?...first 400#er? 2012, 13, etc? Peace, Wayne
PS...I certainly think w/ the new explosion of serious melon growers (thanks in part[big part] to the GWG) that 300#'s will be on a scale in 2011 !!!

3/1/2011 5:25:42 PM

formerly RGG

I never cease to be amazed by what is going on to increase melon size.I am a skeptic though as far as 400 pounds goes for a watermelon. I don't think I will see one in my lifetime. I hope I am wrong though.I do believe there is a very good chance of breaking the 300 pound barrier this year if the weather cooperates.And of course my money would be on Chris and Janet Kent to grow the first 300 pounder as their melons have increased in weight every year they have grown.

3/1/2011 10:43:37 PM

Muddy Waters

Oh you of little faith!! TD.They were saying the same about kins 10 years ago.When you have hundreds of people taking the best of the best & growing it year after year.It is bound to Keep going,Now with organics!Im a betting man.I will bet anyone we hit 400 lbs by 2015.The G.W.G. will inspire many new growers to this Great Sport.Wait till you see the purse next week!Melons have moved slower due to slower interest,That is now a thing of the past.G.W.G. ROCKS!!!!!!!!!

3/2/2011 7:02:24 AM

Minnesota

Hang in there Tennessee...........you will see a 400 pounder in your life........chances are even good for 500lb melon!!

3/2/2011 9:29:11 AM

sevierville, Tn

Dennis, i see no reason we can't get to 300,400,500+.
The climb has begun, this year its 300 or bust !

Tell me why 400 or 500 can't be done ??

3/2/2011 1:48:24 PM

Bowdon, GA

Maybe when we start seeing 500lbers I'll be able to get a 300lber LOL

3/3/2011 10:46:46 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

When I first found bp.com the common thought was "You can't grow a 1k# pkn in Kentucky, it's too far South...Ky. state record now stands at 1331#'s!!! Peace, Wayne
PS...in some lil guess the new record contest, I guess 303 or somethin small like that...if I could, I would up it to 325 or so!!!!!

3/4/2011 1:24:28 AM

Muddy Waters

When I started there were people saying we wouldnt hit 1000 pds on kins then 1500,now I bet theres some saying 2000 wont happen,It hasnt slowed down 1 bit the 1810 blew by the 1725 at 85 lb increase,The 291 was a 23 pd increase thats a 8% increase,the 1810 was about 5% increase.Neither one is slowing down soon.If the Lords willing & the creek dont rise!

3/4/2011 7:31:04 AM

formerly RGG

SMP,of course there is no reason we cannot get to 400 or 500 pounds or more for a watermelon one of these days. The history of watermelons shows they originated in tropical Africa and weighed just a few pounds at most. Melons grew for centuries and gained in average size through genetic selection of seeds that grew larger melons.As of the past few decades with modern day food growing techniques that have provided an abundance of food, families have began preferring smaller and so called seedless melons that will easily fit into a refrigerator leaving plenty of room for other foods. So for decades now our farmers and agricultural scientists have mostly been breeding smaller "seedless" melons because that is what the demand is for. We are a small group that are trying to grow larger and larger melons. And most of us don't really know enough about genetics to do the best job possible at selecting the best seeds possible to breed larger and larger melons. But,wow we have been making remarkable progress since some melons in patches somewhere in Carolina were crossbred by pollinating bees. These were patches of long melons and patches of fat melons and the farmers noticed some melons that were both long and fat as the cross bred seeds were planted and the crossbred genetics were expressed.This was a giant leap forward in watermelon size. We could go to several hundred pounds in just a few years if there was another leap forward similar to the origin of the Carolina Cross. And I do think we will get there anyway as long as there is interest and effort toward growing bigger and bigger monster melons.I am just a little bit skeptical about attaining enough genetic progression in a few short years to add hundreds of more pounds to the record.I think it may take another genetic leap of some kind to get to a 400 pound watermelon in the next few years. So I do think watermelons will get to the 400 or 500 pound range in the future.

3/4/2011 7:44:28 AM

formerly RGG

I am just a bit skeptical this will be done in a few short years.I think a 500 pound watermelon may take a few decades unless scientists are able to directly manipulate the watermelon genes in a way that produces a leap in size similar to the leap that was noted in those first unintended pollinations.But everyone has an opinion and I hope mine is wrong. I would love to see melons as big as 500 pounds or more and then who knows what the eventual limit might be. I wonder what a 2000 pound melon would look like?I do think it is likely someone will break the 300 pound barrier this year.

3/4/2011 7:45:23 AM

formerly RGG

I guess most of the same argument could be made for growing giant pumpkins and they seem to sets amazing records on a regular basis. Anything is possible. I never cease to be amazed at the progress giant growing seems to continually be making.

3/4/2011 7:16:43 PM

Bethlehem CT

I think we are at a real turning point with giant melons, if you look back at giant pumpkins the real jumps didn't start happening until people started making controlled crosses each and every year. Crossing the best with the best. I think we will find out soon what the Carolina Cross can do.

3/5/2011 8:16:07 AM

formerly RGG

And the best of the best has a one year lag time.We know that the seed that grew a big melons may grow more big melons. We do not know however that a seed out of a giant melon produces more giant melons until it is proven.

3/5/2011 1:27:51 PM

Muddy Waters

I dont know if I understand TD The 255 Mitchell grew 260 Kent and 267 Edwards,Is that proof???

3/5/2011 8:55:04 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

TD, w/total respect...I hope yer skepticism gets Squashed!!! LOL Big Moon sorta nailed the hopes of this whole groups, I think "real jumps didn't start happening until people started making controlled crosses each and every year. Crossing the best with the best" I sorta think that, thanks to some action by 4 guys,(GWG) a core group of dedicated growers is gonna see that this happens!!! Not positive on exact #'s but would guess AG WR's have doubled in the past 10 years....291x2 = more than 500#'s!!!! Grow em BIG!!! Peace, Wayne

3/5/2011 11:26:29 PM

formerly RGG

Yes Handy, I think the 255 Mitchell is absolutely a proven seed. And it is one I am going to grow this season. I hope to cross it with the 239 Leonard which is also a proven seed. So I am hoping to produce excellent results from this one. But the offspring will have to be grown to become a proven seed. Just because it looks like a super cross does not mean you will have super results. Perhaps a scientist looking at the genetics could tell if it is a good cross but the only way the common grower to know for sure is to see results.

3/6/2011 12:27:54 AM

formerly RGG

With respect Wayne, I hope you are completely right.I also hope my skepticism gets squashed. But it is what it is.And I fully expect a lot of progress will continue to be made.I just somewhat doubt there will be a doubling in size in the next ten years. I would dearly love to see and grow melons of gargantuan size. And I am a happy and proud member of the "Giant Watermelon Growers". I just don't know if there is a direct co-relation between the breeding of Atlantic Giants and Carolina Cross. If such results can come from aggressive genetic crossing of the best of the best of anything then we could cross breed the chickens that laid the biggest eggs and then in ten years we would have eggs that are twice as big as the ones we have now.So I fully expect melons will get to over 500 pounds in time. But are we smart enough and good enough to make that happen in ten short years. We both hope so, but I would certainly be unwilling to put any money on it.Grow 'em big Wayne!

3/6/2011 12:45:27 AM

formerly RGG

I will say I think my skepticism will be crushed if the world record is broken by another 20 pounds or so this year.So come on all of you heavy hitters; I want to see one of you grow at least a 311 or bigger this year.

3/6/2011 12:57:06 AM

Muddy Waters

Everybody has a right to there opinion,I dont think your being negative,this is just how you feel,This is a game of #s the melons do have the ability to get 4 & 5 hundred pds.These #s are not exacts but say there were 30 serious growers last year & chris hit 291 WR.This year there will be 60 serious growers,The wiz has stated he is growing a melon ( State record holder on kins)THese HH kin growers will do well at melons,as will old hippee gardeners with some mycorrhizae like myself.lol The 291 will be a hot seed,if not the 260 will be hot,if not the,239 zurner will be hot,1 or more of these seeds will lead us to 500 pds with 100+ growers.The more growers the quicker she climbs!GWG ROCKS!!

3/6/2011 7:00:37 AM

Muddy Waters

If everybody agreed with me you would all be right!!lol

3/6/2011 7:04:38 AM

Rome Ga

300 lbs. this year probably so. I think 400 lb. is likely in the next ten years if we all keep trading proven seeds and share what works and what doesnt. I think the pumpkin growers may have a edge over some of us other growers right now but if we keep sharing growing tech. we will get there. There is some great people in the GWG and they are willing to help anyway they can

3/6/2011 8:48:30 AM

formerly RGG

One of the things that might hold us back a little is that most or all of the world class growers are not exactly the 3 Musketeers (all for one & one for all). What I mean is they are willing to share a lot of good information but when you get down to it I think most or all of them have a few little secret growing techniques that they keep for themselves.These growers want to promote the hobby and see new records set; but, they want to keep their edge so they are able to remain on top. I have personally heard something of this nature from a couple of very successful growers and I think it is probably common practice.And I don't blame them. It usually take some kind of edge on the competition to be the best. So there are definitely great people in the GWG and even outside the GWG who are willing to give great advice to promote the hobby. But most of these growers are not willing to give up everything they know for fear of losing that edge.

3/6/2011 9:50:40 AM

formerly RGG

And don't get me wrong, I have no animosity toward growers for keeping certain growing techniques to themselves. I know I will probably do the same thing if I think I have figured out some growing technique that gives me an edge. This type of behavior won't limit progress but it may perhaps slow it down a little.

3/6/2011 9:56:22 AM

Muddy Waters

I find that totally untrue,I dont know any growers sitting on secrets,Maybe Im ignorant or just silly!!

3/6/2011 1:33:25 PM

formerly RGG

Well I didn't lie.And what growers know that they don't want to tell is,probably nothing earth shattering.Probably just little things they do that they feel might give them a small edge. And if I were in possession of some practice or technique that gave me a little edge up on the competition I would also probably keep it under my hat too. I am certainly not blaming anyone.I will not name any names. I do not want this to get controversial or ugly. I do not think you are silly Handy. However all of us are ignorant about something or another or in my case I'm ignorant about a lot of things.Ignorance being simply things I do not know means simply that I have a lot of things to learn. :)

3/6/2011 2:06:50 PM

sevierville, Tn

lol, I tried to trade my "secret" river sand. No one wanted it. LOL

3/6/2011 2:09:22 PM

Sevierville,tn

secrets???? Really????hmmmmmmmmmm being whats his name will not even tell me what his line up is I think there may be a secret kept...but it may be just that someone would think what is done is silly;).... like wearing your cape when pollinating:))) what is your line up ???(shrug)

3/6/2011 2:20:36 PM

Bowdon, GA

I didn't have nothing worth trading. You don't need a cow do you?

3/6/2011 2:28:41 PM

Sevierville,tn

EatN or MilkN????

3/6/2011 2:31:34 PM

Linden, Mi.,

Well said Tennessee Dreamer Well said !
As do we all(have a lot to learn) and learn we shall - Thanks to the GWG new club.
It may take time to get those secrets out, but we will !!!

3/6/2011 2:34:21 PM

Jamul

Very Funny,
I was thinking Chris could make a comprehensive tutorial video and pass it out "complimentary" to all the new GWG members. Exactly how he prunes his plants ...and every other pertinent detail can come right before where he gets his river sand....inquiring minds do want to know.

3/6/2011 2:38:24 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Secrets are kept in the AG world also...ever heard of Turbo Juice? Ever heard about the King & Prince of Sandbaggin!!! Try & find out what is in Turbo Juice!!! LOL Prince (John) VanSandBaggus, isn't givin out his secret!!! Allthough, I think he said if I would drive the 3 hours to his house, he would give me a 20 oz bottle filled w/ Turbo Juice!!!!
smp, certainly wanted it, but don't have a truck big enough to haul enough to help my melon patch!!!!! LOL
I guess an apology, is in order also, TD...sorry to have HI-jacked yer post!!! But has turned out well, I think!!! Grow em BIG!!! Peace, Wayne

3/6/2011 2:46:02 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

RusDiego, I would pay for one!!!! LOL Still sorta waiting to hear if the video from the KGPG seminar worked out? Peace, Wayne

3/6/2011 2:49:00 PM

sevierville, Tn

Dennis, you have been here. Did you see any secrets lying around or hiding for that mater ?????

3/6/2011 3:04:54 PM

Bowdon, GA

Eatn is all I got, MS Janet. Or I could send you my wife's cat.

3/6/2011 3:05:51 PM

Bowdon, GA

All the HH I have met have been very helpful. They just work at it more than I do. There are so many aspects involved that they can't cover all the details. It takes experience to learn what questions to ask. If some do have a few trade secrets thats OK. We are still progressing dramatically.

3/6/2011 3:11:56 PM

Sevierville,tn

Holloway,
Now your talkN!!!!1 Steaks for seeds work for me...and I will even give you some of that riversand!!!!

3/6/2011 3:42:16 PM

formerly RGG

OK, I guess I have been whipped into submission. Looks like everyone tells everyone else they know everything they may possibly know to help their competition do as well as they do.
I stand corrected. :)

3/6/2011 4:42:20 PM

Muddy Waters

I will tell you just recently I went to a supply house.The supplier told me.a local HH in kins has no secrets he shares it all I really dont think there are any,The only secret I have found is 1 guy not sharing how to pick a good cross, & he told me, so It aint a secret no more.My sister in law used to laugh at my Fishing secrets book,A published book full of secrets,what morron would buy this?I guess I did. lol.I will share all & I hope you grow a WR 1pd smaller than mine TD.

3/6/2011 5:42:36 PM

formerly RGG

I guess about all that is left to say is thank you and I appreciate your wishes for a new WR. Only I hope mine is one pound bigger than yours.:)

3/6/2011 6:49:51 PM

Sevierville,tn

I think we are getting spring fever!!!! and chompN at the bit!..Lets go Grow N boys boogie boogie boogie!!!!

3/7/2011 7:13:01 AM

Jamul

200-300 square feet sounds great. If anyone has time for some questions;

What parts do you take out and leave in? Are there named "patterns"? Can or should we take out everything behind the stump, like many pumpkin growers do? Do you doing anything special with the wounds to the plant where it has been cut? Does good pruning potentially add 1O pounds or 50 ...or more?

3/7/2011 12:20:41 PM

Jamul

....As to possible "secret" advantages someone could employ, a few possibilities come to mind that don't seem main stream at all; With a 120 day variety it seems like 3-6 hours of extra lights and bringing up soil and air temps for the first few months could help? If the plants go gangbusters as it warms up and days get longer, why not give them that consistently from the start, even in mild climates?

3/7/2011 12:26:07 PM

Jamul

I mean "why not?" other than that it would be crazy.

3/7/2011 12:29:23 PM

Muddy Waters

I dont if extra lite would help,they grow more at nite than daytime,warmer nites is the ticket I think!

3/9/2011 8:15:03 PM

Muddy Waters

doubt

3/9/2011 8:37:42 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Rustico, soil heating cables, hoop houses for early plants, is no secret.Not sure about the extended hours of light thing?? Pruning wounds... I carry a squeeze bottle w/ me while pruning, filled w/captan, and give each cut a quick dust!!! Peace, Wayne

3/9/2011 10:22:34 PM

Muddy Waters

never done any wound treatment,no issues either.

3/10/2011 5:23:04 AM

Bowdon, GA

Our long growing season is one reason I start later. You have plenty of time to grow one here. Plants started in may catch up quick here. Captain works great for wounds I held on to some rotten stumps last year for about 60 days. They eventually bit the dust when the fruit was about 60 days old. But I probablly wounldn't have even gotten a melon without it and fans.

3/10/2011 6:25:40 PM

Jamul

Thanks for the tips everyone.
Russell

3/11/2011 5:55:44 PM