Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Piqua, Ohio

Try Tetsukabuto Squash, the plants will grow aggressively do good in cold, and drought. Plus it eliminates fuserium wilt. I have better luck getting them to take on this rootstock using single cot method. Ice Man look up Nathan Ocorne maybe he can help he's in your part of the country.

1/17/2013 5:01:55 PM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

I used 'Shintosa Camelforce' as a rootstock. This is a (Cucurbita Maxima X Cucurbita moschata) cross. I believe that this is the same cross as the 'Tetsukabota' variety. This year I may try a long gourd for my rootstock. (I believe this is what Gabriele Bartoli used on his world record.
I had to do a couple of rounds of practice grafts in order to get the hang of it. I know it is a scary thought to spend big bucks on a seed and then to have it die with grafting. It will be interesting to see if any growers in America have success with grafting this year.

1/17/2013 5:44:00 PM

LIpumpkin

Long Island,New York

splain this to me lucy.....you're using a squash stock resistent to soil diseases(fusarium in this case) and growing a melon that some of the better growers tell me will root along the vines....maybe not as often as a giant pkn but they tell me it roots....which subjects it to the soil diseases......so whats the benefit?

1/17/2013 5:57:21 PM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

I understand what you are saying, I don't know how it works either,. All I know is that the two largest melons ever grown were both on grafts. It is worth looking into. It would be really great to get an interview with the world record holder for some of his insights into grafting.

1/17/2013 7:30:08 PM

Holloway

Bowdon, GA

Frank I figured you would be partial to the "camel"force.

1/17/2013 7:47:40 PM

Piqua, Ohio

grafting watermelons has been going on in Japan for decades, The rootstock isn't resistant to disease, but when you graft a melon it eliminates fuserium almost 100% you can graft a melon to another melon rootstock for resistance

1/17/2013 8:05:09 PM

Princeton Kentucky

I've got four successful Carolina Cross scion to AG rootstocks grafted, lol why I don't know , because I thought it sounded interesting. I'm just using wally world seeds of the CC's at this point useing the one cot methode. Also have got several FP scion / AG rootstocks with very nice growth at the graft. In my diary I stated today that I wish I had somebody close to me to grow one of these now, lol. I've learned even more Patients doing these grafts and when you figure it out you'll and know it when you put the clip on them. John C. I know what you mean on the cost of seeds, thats why I'm doin it now so when time comes in March and April hopefully I'll get it right, lol. Not an expert here just an enthusiest!! Can't wait to see what I can do with the FP's!! Maybe nothin!!

1/17/2013 8:10:19 PM

Walking Man

formerly RGG

The Shintosa Camelforce did not work for me - the stumps grew huge and then diseased. The rootstock that worked well for me was the cucurbita ficofilia. I may try this one again and possibly some various gourds as rootstock in 2013.

1/17/2013 8:29:05 PM

The North Coast

Theoretically, the most aggressive or most vigorous rootstock for watermelon is in the Shintosa line. There are a few very similar 'squash style' rootstocks that in studies provided the highest vigor...but just moderately over other varieties. However, what I have found out through experience and research is that a harmony needs to be struck between the rootstock and the scion. In fact, Shintosa is so vigorous that when you put a high vigor scion (like CC) onto it the result can be too much vegetation and misshapen fruit. Shintosa is more suited for the smaller style field melons that need a kick. The more I look into the Lagenaria rootstock the more I believe that it is the best fit. The commercial varieties of Lagenaria are disease resistant(fusarium, phyto crown rot), are a F1 hybrid, convey other useful resistances to the scion and are more suited to a wide varieties of soils.

C.ficifolia is a rootstock best suited for cucumbers and cantelope or if you really need to plant in cold soil. Some have had good luck with C.ficifolia but it rarely gets used for watermelon commercially. The third largest grafted melon last year was on C.ficifolia

As for what Lagenaria rootstock to use, I prefer commercial varieties. Namely Macis and Emaphasis. These two seeds have been through a commercial breeding program and are considered the go to varieties for some operations. Bartoli and others will have success using a common rootstock seed but nothing beats a specifically bred, proven seed.

1/17/2013 8:41:03 PM

Princeton Kentucky

Sorry for the error on my post back there but I meant to say on the Carolina/AG grafts I used the center hole method on those. Pics on me diary. You think I'd know'd what I'd done. I also used the Salem Pumpkin or aka Giant White Cushaw Squash for root stock. A very hardy vine indeed against fusarium also.

1/17/2013 8:44:57 PM

The North Coast

@LIpumpkin...disease control is one thing, the way a rootstock boosts the plant is nothing short of amazing. You seen the way Dizzy Gillespie blew a horn? That's what a good rootstock does to a melon. Now we just have to figure out how to make sweet music with it all.

1/17/2013 8:51:08 PM

Piqua, Ohio

Just want to say 2012 my grafts only produced 76 lbs but was a great plant what you're saying makes sense to me Nate maybe I'll try a few different root stocks this year

1/18/2013 4:16:01 PM

Bubba Presley

Muddy Waters

Bigger root system, bigger vines, bigger fruit period.is this good Ricky?lol

1/18/2013 9:19:01 PM

Holloway

Bowdon, GA

Nathan, besides the two WRs what else was grown on grafts that you know of? Any in the US?

1/18/2013 9:55:46 PM

The North Coast

Tennessee Dreamer @ 228 on C.ficifolia.

1/19/2013 7:07:43 AM

LIpumpkin

Long Island,New York

So what your saying is the reason for grafting isnt to eliminate root diseases but to increase wieghts?

1/19/2013 1:56:17 PM

Piqua, Ohio

grafting doesn't increase weight, fruit density yes! healthier plant, and bigger root system, plus disease resistance, yes that all helps. Genetics are genetics! I think Dennis still would've grown a 228 without grafting he's a knowledgable grower!!

1/19/2013 4:45:45 PM

The North Coast

Yes, grafting does help with disease resistance but also the rootstock is so much better in getting nutrition out of the soil. In my opinion the main reason is to ultimately get more out of your plant and its genetics. When fully understood for Carolina Cross, it will allow more people to get better results in less than perfect soil.

1/19/2013 6:28:38 PM

Holloway

Bowdon, GA

Thanks Nathan, I didn't realize Dennis's 228 was on a graft

1/19/2013 7:57:43 PM

Bubba Presley

Muddy Waters

I dont have any disease issues With melons that I know of,should I still graft?

1/19/2013 8:34:43 PM

Princeton Kentucky

Mark, in my view ..yes you should give it a try and see if you can't get one of your own to take. All the years of growing veggies (Nearly 37 years) I've always seen and read about the disease resistance useing different root stocks but lately its been alot about size and now weight associated with size. Personaly thats why I'm beatin thee ole noggin here trying to get this grafting thing down. I'm going to plant both grafted and non-grafted melons this year in as much controled and equal environment as I can and see what happens. If you have a way I'd say go for it with one of your plants. Ya never know!!

1/19/2013 9:25:59 PM

The North Coast

Of all the fruiting, annual plants the watermelon stands to gain the most by grafting. The native roots on even the best variety of melon are limiting to the plant. Studies and trials by the best scientist and farmers say that it will improve your odds of a successful harvest.

Another way I look at it is that it gives you something for free. In order for a non grafted plant to perform like a grafted plant you will need to have everything just right. Good soil temperature, excellent fertility, a disease management program that is spot on, and a bit of luck. With a graft, this issues are not nearly as important.

With that being said, there are still kinks in the system that we need to work out. Namely what is the best rootstock needed to get the performance we desire. Fortunately, Mr. Bartoli has helped our evolution as melon growers with his use of Lagenaria. The Europeans know what they are doing and are ahead of our farming cultures in many ways. In the fall of 2011, the year before the 307 and the 327, an event was held named the International Symposium on Vegetable Grafting. Guess where it was held....Italy.

1/20/2013 7:59:54 AM

Valencia Spain

all eating watermelons are grafted in spain

1/20/2013 11:24:06 AM

Princeton Kentucky

Mr. Nate you make some great points. westam your right Asia and the whole of Euro I believe, greatly rely on the technique of grafts to minimize desease..sadly the potato famine proved this decades ago. Alot of good reading here on everyones part.

1/20/2013 3:44:54 PM

bigmelonsgirl

Tennessee Valley

For me, I am very happy with the grafted plants I had this past year. The plants in my main garden were grafted onto rootstock that didn't work out and I had disease problems with them. But the 113 Kent that was grafted onto cucurbita ficofilia and was in my new lower garden, grew me a new personal best even though the soil wasn't analyzed or amended to any extent. Basically I grew in pure horse manure that I sprinkled with a little gypsum on top of hard unturned clay. I was VERY happy with the growth of my 228.5. I will continue to grow on grafted rootstock as much as I am able to. I have high hopes for my Bartoli seeds in 2013. But I want to try my hand at pumpkins again and am not sure how many melon plants I am going to have room for.

1/20/2013 6:59:40 PM

Walking Man

formerly RGG

Sorry, the last post was mine. Pam had signed in earlier and I failed to notice it.

1/20/2013 7:01:57 PM

Lovingitinflorida

Please describe the 228.5 plant in comparison to plants grown in previous years. Did the plant at any stage seem to send more nutrition to the fruit than to the vines?

1/21/2013 11:51:35 AM

The North Coast

...and how did it look on the inside??? Normal? Hollow? Solid?

...and how did it do in comparison to the chart? Thanks.

1/21/2013 11:58:57 AM

Walking Man

formerly RGG

My 228 (as were all my grafted plants last year) grew rapidly and was extremely aggressive. The biggest contrast to me was how fast the plant grew in the cool spring weather. Carolina Cross loves hot weather and are not known for fast growth when the weather is cool. This was a very fat melon and it was slightly heavy to the chart due to it's shape. The interior had a fairly large hollow space in it as almost all of these giant melons do.

1/23/2013 7:56:42 AM

Valencia Spain

what u graft canteloupes to, just wondering

1/23/2013 3:25:29 PM

The North Coast

Most of the rootstock genetics outside of Asia are nearly identical and have been unchanged for quite a while. That means that squash rootstocks are nearly all identical to each other. Whether it is Shintosa, Strong tosa, Shintosa Camelforce the genetics are very comparable. Same thing is true with Lagenaria. With that being said you have 3 options. If you are growing early in the year with cool soils the C.ficifolia would work well. If you are looking to improve fruit quality or if you are growing in a poly house then Lagenaria is recommended. If you are growing in an open field then squash may be your best bet. There really is not much information out there for cantaloupe grafting but any of the mentioned rootstocks will put a charge into the plant and should result in more production. If they are eating melons I would use C.ficifolia. It has good vigor and is known not to change the flavor too much. If you are growing them just for size, I'd go squash.

1/25/2013 9:11:01 AM

Valencia Spain

cant see your video anymore in utube

1/30/2013 3:41:38 PM

The North Coast

Here is another good one.

http://cals.arizona.edu/grafting/content/hole-insertion-method-cucurbits-video

This guy cuts the rootstock from the tray, leaving it with no roots. This is not the only way to do it. A person could also leave their rootstocks intact during the process.

1/31/2013 6:36:45 AM

Valencia Spain

thanks my plants are almost ready to try grafting

1/31/2013 2:28:20 PM

Valencia Spain

when u graft how long before the leaves stand rigid, im grafting in a plastic bag inside a heated greenhouse, got no other things i can use, they probally wont take

2/8/2013 1:49:02 PM

The North Coast

The two cotyledon on the scion will look bad for a while. What is most important is the look of the first true leaf on the melon. If that looks good then it is just a matter of time before it all gets going again. Also, make sure that you mist them with water every now and again. If surgery was a success and if humidity was held high, they should be showing signs of growth in 7 to 10 days.

2/8/2013 5:02:29 PM

Piqua, Ohio

the approach graft method doesn't require high humidity. On single cot grafts I put them in total darkness for 24 hours after grafting.

2/8/2013 5:30:06 PM

Valencia Spain

the seedling leaves are still green so its ok still, grafted 3 last week and 5 more this week, but are grafted onto casper for now, the next ones will be grafted onto bottle gourd, not using good watermelon seeds, only my open pollinated seeds

also trying golden watermelon

2/9/2013 2:36:51 PM

Cornish Giant

Cornwall UK

I assume the grafting process will cause a check in early growth so how does grafting effect the seed starting date, if I normally start seeds around the 1st April do I need to start 1,2 or may be 3 weeks earlier?

2/10/2013 12:44:11 PM

Valencia Spain

dont know but here in valencia u can plant 18 march, more or les in the ground with plastic on top

2/10/2013 12:54:22 PM

bigmelonsgirl

Tennessee Valley

If you use a good cold weather rootstock the plants will grow a lot faster than they normally would during the early and cool spring months.

2/10/2013 3:05:11 PM

Cornish Giant

Cornwall UK

I see that Josh mentioned Tetsukabuto Squash as a good rootstock for cold conditions in an earlier post, are there any more that could be recomended?

2/10/2013 4:56:29 PM

The North Coast

From day of planting it takes about a week for the plants to be ready for grafting. The healing process will take another week. So in ideal conditions you can have a plant ready to be hardened off on day 14. Give it one more week in a larger pot and you will have a nice plant ready for the soil on day 21.
Note, that is under ideal conditions for the entire process.

C. ficifolia is an excellent choice for cold soils. Johnny's Seed here in the states has a variety named 'Triumph' that is used for cucumbers and cold soiled melons. While the squash rootstocks do add more vigor in more soil types, if an early start in cold soil is your goal then c. ficifolia will be a real good pick.

2/10/2013 7:53:55 PM

Cornish Giant

Cornwall UK

Thanks for the info Bat Cave N8, just for the record I tried Johnny's seeds but for international shipping they have a $175 minimum order, I have found the same seeds in the uk at http://www.molesseeds.co.uk/

2/12/2013 5:50:08 PM

Piqua, Ohio

try this site
http://www.takii.com/wp-content/uploads/Watermelon-Rootstocks.pdf

2/12/2013 10:14:09 PM

Piqua, Ohio

for me the squash root stocks grow better in colder temps, but that's what works for me, it may not for you. Read all you can

2/12/2013 10:18:39 PM

The North Coast

Wow, that is a good chart from takii. It is rare that you find such good information about their characteristics. The Tetsukabuto squash does look like a real winner also and the tetsukabuto does also sound alot like the shintosa line. Shintosa also gets the 'dont over fertilize' warning.

While c. ficifolia is a true cold blooded rootstock, with what I now see I like the characteristics of the tetsukabuto squash. Also, the squash rootstocks are very vigorous, more vigorous than c. ficifolia. If given option between the two...I would go with the squash.

2/13/2013 7:59:00 AM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

N8, I think that both the 'Shintosa Camelforce' and the 'Tetsukabota' are intergeneric hybrids. Cucurbita maxima x Cucurbita moschata. So I think you are right that they would be similar. I know that you can get the 'Tetsukabota' much easier over here. Tennessee Dreamer hooked me up with the Shintosa seed last year as it was not commonly available in this country. I grew out a few of the shintosa camelforce seeds and they produced a ton of dark green solid round fruit about the size of a volleyball. They were sweet and not bad to eat although I would not grow them for that purpose as the texture was almost too silky smooth. I actually prefer a little more mealiness like a buttercup or butternut. The seeds in them appeared to be sterile and undeveloped.

2/13/2013 12:39:22 PM