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formerly RGG

Anyone interested in the subject should read Nathan Okorn's recent diary post on the matter.I think he really knows what he is talking about. But I also think that some of our problems or lack of problems with GSB is just plain old dumb luck.I am certain that treating our stumps with fungicides early on and regularly will help us achieve better results. But the season has not been a failure for all grafted plants and some non grafted plants have failed as well. My 270 Neptune has grown into a large and aggressive plant and although it has had some leakage due to heavy pruning this stump seems intact and vigorous. The link to Nathan's post:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=227095

8/27/2014 10:02:14 PM

Garner, NC

Great post by Nathan, he works very hard at what he does, and knows his stuff! My feelings on the stump problems may be wrong, but here goes. I think the squash/gourd rootstock may be pushing more water into the melon vines than they can handle, meaning something gotta give, and the stump is where it all backs up and blows. My graft this year is perfectly healthy, looks great, but the stump is as big as a 1/2 gal milk jug, and hollow. Maybe you get lucky and get a melon vine that can handle the pressure/volume, and if you do watch out, cause she will grow fast!

8/27/2014 11:24:39 PM

Princeton Kentucky

N8 is a hard worker and persistance will pay off for him. I use a systemic fungicide every 2 weeks and have sulfer powder brushed on the crown area constantly with the trunk of the grafted plant always covered to protect from moisture. I also Spray with Fertilome fruit tree spray about 3 times during the season for powdery mildew and critters on thee entire plant. So far this season, excellent results with the AG/Melon grafts. I'm going to work on Giant Squash/Melon grafts over the winter. Although the Grafted AG/Melon,(260 Clementz) is doing great, the end results for this season for me is traditional is growing better. I hope N8 nails the GSB problem. Thanks for the heads up on N8s post TD!!

8/28/2014 5:55:31 PM

Bowdon, GA

I agree with Todd. If your grafted stump don't rot your just lucky. I do think that if you do get lucky though it does grow faster.

8/28/2014 9:34:55 PM

formerly RGG

You are right Jake, and if no one takes the risk no one will see the gain. I think grafted plants can be heartbreaking but they can also be a lot of fun to play around with. It will be very interesting to see how big a one pops up this year. Gabriele Bartoli seems to consistently come up with a huge melon from a grafted plant.

8/29/2014 9:04:39 PM

formerly RGG

The stump on my 270 Neptune is leaking just a little bit but I see no signs of it growing to enormous size or looking rotten. So is my stump doomed or is it possible for it to leak and stay disease free ? Does leakage mean my stump has blown ? How can I tell. My melon gains seem to be down to about 3 pounds a day from about 4 pounds a day last week and the weather has been great. I think Todd's opinion is right for most of us but again Mr Bartoli seems to have figured something out. I mean if he weighs another 300 plus pounds melon again this year that will make 3 years in a row. Maybe the weather is most excellent over there or maybe he just knows how to do it better.

8/29/2014 9:16:35 PM

Garner, NC

Dennis, I think if your stump is leaking, that means the inside is starting to go to mush, but they can still add a few lbs a day with a rotting stump, they just slow down a lot from what I have seen, its just when they go to mush when the melon is 20 days, is when its really bad. If your vines have rooted, you should still be able to grow to a good size.
As far as Bartoli, no one know how many plants he has, what if he has 50 plants, and 48 blow out, and he has 2 make to 300 pounds, those are odds that I can't take with only have 1 or 2 grafted plants. Now if we could figure out what make those 2 survive, then game on!

8/30/2014 2:05:24 PM

sevierville, Tn

did all of Nathans grafts fail, or is Dennis's the only one to make it??? Anyone know?
Dennis, if the stump is normal size, your probally ok. They swell to huge size due to the disease, kinda like we swell with an infection.

8/30/2014 3:12:04 PM

The North Coast

How discouraging, humbling, and yet motivational it is to hear my name and the word fail in the same sentence. It is what it is pretty much. What a great time we'd be having if GSB wasn't messing things up. It is a really difficult disease control. I'm going to learn as much as I can over the next few years with the hopes of shedding that "f" word. Cheers.

8/30/2014 4:02:44 PM

sevierville, Tn

Don't feel too bad, my homemade grafts failed too. Besides, your graft still holds the WR, so its not a complete failure. A few rockets were lost on the way to the "man on the moon" thing too ! ;)

8/30/2014 4:33:01 PM

formerly RGG

Well said Chris.

8/30/2014 6:19:24 PM

Garner, NC

I don't think Nathan has failed, I think the plants have failed, and there is nothing more he can do, except find a way for us to grow them better. I have a different feeling than most on the grafts, I'm not sure it's disease, but a compatibly issue. Seems all the grafts I have had go down, the plants always look great and disease free , the graft union fills with water, and rots from the inside out. So my question is, what good is putting fungicide on the stump going to do to keep the inside from filling with water? I think if we talk, and do more research, we can alleviate the problem.

9/2/2014 11:40:58 AM

Bethlehem CT

Definitely Todd, We will always have a compatibility issue. I have seen it with grafted trees, the longer the grafted tree lives the more you will see the incompatbility between the two. There will be a size difference between the rootstock and the scion or graft. Some trees are incompatible with certain rootstocks and will not graft period. (usually grafts will work with in same genus) Others will form a graft that works for a while then it could be ten years down the road and you may start to see failures at the union. (this is due to the different growth rates of the rootstock and the scion.) If the rootstock and the union both grow at the same rate and are closely related genetically, you can have a very long lasting tree.
Maybe we could try grafting watermelons to watermelons, Using the most vigorous and disease resistant cultivar as the rootstock.

9/2/2014 1:23:36 PM

The North Coast

I have not seen the filling with water or the sweating phenomenon yet, which brings me to ask to see pictures of these types of failures. If you can please post your pictures and mention them here on this thread so we know. Compatibility seems to be a variable in this but it is hard to wrap my head around that when I see GSB expressed in these failing plants. Compatibility (and expertise of the watermelon whisperer) allowed the record to be broken last year. However, I feel that an area of the melon stem becomes infected then a compatibility issue arises. As with all of this, progress starts with making educated guesses based on experience and trying to prove them right or wrong. Possibly more than one issue is at play here.

9/2/2014 2:25:12 PM

Garner, NC

Just posted a pic to my diary of a stump from last year, filled with water, then rotted from inside out. They whole time, plant looked healthy, and melon overnight, dropped to 2 lbs a day. Cut stump off, and melon continued slow gains, base off rooted vines.

9/2/2014 2:35:04 PM

Central Minnesota

I had two of Nathan's grafts and both ended up failing. One early, it was damaged in shipping though. The second not until about three weeks ago or so. I did not use a stump cover, maybe that would have helped for sure. I did treat my stumps with fungicide and use a very extensive systemic program, the same my AG's get. I don't see systemic fungicide treatment as the answer because it would be hard to do more than I do. My three non-grafted plants got the same treatments this year and are doing well. My grafted plants were super aggressive and grew well while they held.

9/2/2014 3:16:38 PM

Frankfort Ohio

sounds alot like a foaming stump on a ag to much water uptake i have seen first had guys take a foaming stump drill a small hole in the under side to let pressure off and spray the area weekly with zero tolerance fungicide im new to the melons but find the grafts interesting just my 2 cents might be something to think about

9/2/2014 7:33:00 PM

Bowdon, GA

My grafted plant was the healthiest plant I had last year. No brown ooze leaf spots nothing, just started leaking clear water. I have gotten pretty good at working with stump issues, but couldn't do anything with the grafted stump. It seriously looked like a mud hole around it until it finally completely rotted. Here is some encouragement though Dennis, It gained about 2 pounds a day for 60 days. 120 lbs est with no stump. Looks like you already have a nice melon so even if it does go you can coast in to a really nice melon. Chris did your 350 have any stump issues towards the end?

9/2/2014 10:46:54 PM

Bowdon, GA

I just checked out your diary. That stump looks like its trying to out grow problems on the inside. With a drop in ppd like that I would try this. It will not stop the rot but you might can slow it down for a while, every pound counts. I would clean out all the organic material around the stump and expose the roots a few inches. Find a soft spot (probably where its leaking), and split it enough with a knife to clean out the rotten parts. You need to get all you can. Then coat it with sulpher and keep a fan on it till its gone.

9/2/2014 11:09:11 PM

Bowdon, GA

I have only had one stump rot since I started doing this.
1. Set the plant out in pure sand with a gravel pit underneath
slow getting started but its worth it
2. Keep the stump covered and wash away the sand once the
plant is established to expose the roots
3. Spray the stump only with a strong mixture of
mancozeb,kocide and daconil once a week
4. Don't use straight sulfer or captan as a preventative it
can crack a perfectly healthy stump
The only one that rotted using this method was the one graft I have tried.

9/2/2014 11:15:31 PM

Bowdon, GA

Last one I promise here is a pic on the 238 stump using this method at the end of the year the plant was completely dead but the stump still looked great.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=190200

9/2/2014 11:19:01 PM

sevierville, Tn

the grafts i lost this year(291rampart,260bushelgourd,274shintosa),last year(274rampart) and in 2012 (xxx shintosa) all swelled up, fill with water and or rotted from the inside out. The 291(rampart) leaked but was perfect inside when i cut it open at season end.

9/3/2014 6:47:22 AM

sevierville, Tn

i have only had one regular melon stump go bad ever since i started growing melons. Although you can loose one from outside issues, the problem with the grafts are that they are going bad from the inside out. While this is occuring, the plants continue to look & grow great, and even set and grow melons galore. If you have a big one growing however, it will slow to a crawl. I have gotten the stumps dried out with various holes and surgery, but the melon never recovers its growth.

9/3/2014 6:52:35 AM

sevierville, Tn

so thats the problem, the early symptoms are the same. Leaking/wet stump but that doesn't tell you whats going on inside. If it starts to swell abnormally, its 95% sure its bad inside. The 291 stump even split a small hole in the top, but wasn't abnormally huge, big yes, huge no.
If the plants can grow with GSB and the rootstock can too, why when combined(supose to give resistance) do they surcome? Is GSB just being opertunistic? or is it the cause of the failure?

9/3/2014 7:04:47 AM

sevierville, Tn

do wet sidewalks cause rain....or rain cause wet sidewalks ? lol.... if all we see is the wet sidewalks and the rain separately, its hard to know the cause without a lot of digging !

9/3/2014 7:08:22 AM

Muddy Waters

Yes I never got real excited with the silicone sisters.I like the real Mcoy!!Not trying to be a BOOB or anything,just saying my heart goes with the thing.

9/3/2014 7:51:55 AM

Muddy Waters

real

9/3/2014 7:52:19 AM

Watervalley Ms

just a guess the small stump works better when small. I would not use much or none at all of the seaweed at the stump I believe it makes a stump big.
The other guess is when the plant is being cut to do the graft, disease gets in, or were the graft joins there is separation as it gets bigger the separation gets worse. I would like to try a graft next year can someone help me with this? Thanks

9/3/2014 7:56:33 AM

Central Minnesota

Dennis, both of my bad stumps looked like yours in your diary. The plant and pumpkin continued to grow well while it leaked. But, just like yours you can see the intersection line where it is leaking. If you were to open that up you would find lots of rot on the inside. That is exactly how mine looked. Fine on the outside, rot on the inside. Only indication was the leaking water. The rot inside slowly opens up the stump to release the water.

9/3/2014 9:45:23 AM

Grant, AL

Very interesting post! I know absolutely nothing about grafting though I would like to try it next year. Could the rotting be caused by the watermelon plant triggering the rootstock to absorb more water than it was intended to handle? After the rootstock takes in all it can handle then the leaking starts and subsequent rotting. Just a suggestion.

9/3/2014 1:04:19 PM

Garner, NC

Charles, that my point, if the rootstock( lets say pumps 100 gallons a day, but the watermelon vines can only handle 50 gallons a day, then theirs your problem, a backup at the union)

9/3/2014 2:19:05 PM

Grant, AL

Right! That makes a lot of sense, Todd. I think I had it backwards though. Again, I know absolutely nothing about grafting but I am about to start learning because it really interests me. I don't know how you could have some type of relief at the union without causes other problems though.

9/3/2014 2:44:26 PM

Bowdon, GA

I have to agree with the water supply theory from what I have seen. I even tried pruning the vine tips in the afternoon to let some pressure off. Also prune traditional plants for comparison. The traditional plants dripped water and the grafts poured water.

9/3/2014 9:34:40 PM

Frankfort Ohio

Has any one that grows in a greenhouse had the same issue when The Ability To Control Water Might Help out Really good Topic Guys

9/3/2014 9:51:51 PM

Home of happy lil plants

this post has legs


to sum it up.... can we make a graft and drill a pretty decent hole in it upon reaching maturity in order to essentially bypass that issue? an emergency drain of sorts plus airflow (still not an ideal scenario but a thought

high risk and Chance of better reward is still making it look interesting...... saying that Ive lost a traditional stump this year as well as almost lost stump on another... My direct issue was high water uptake limited airflow... just ideas

9/3/2014 9:56:21 PM

Grant, AL

Grafting does not sound easy as I am sure I will find out next spring when I give it a try. Has anyone considered double grafting? Grafting two scions to one rootstock. Wouldn't this essentially provide more vine to compensate for the large amounts of water that the rootstock is taking in? Hopefully keeping water from backing up to the union. I googled "double grafted watermelon plants" and it pulled up a study where it shows it is helpful. Remember I know nothing about grafts just trying to make a helpful suggestion.

9/3/2014 10:36:24 PM

Bowdon, GA

Any injury to the stump will cause it to rot. Drilling holes is only a desperate measure. Most rot on traditional stumps in my opinion is due to highly organic moist soil around the stump.

9/3/2014 10:40:59 PM

Muddy Waters

You guys should try growing them with no organic matter within 2-3 feet of your stump in really well drained soil & keep them dry & soil drench with systemic fungicides every 10 days .Just a thought.

9/4/2014 5:17:07 AM

formerly RGG

I think either GSB develops or it doesn't. Stump leakage without GSB is a completely different issue. As for high levels of organic matter around the stump, I think it is OK as long as the grower provides adequate drainage. I am growing in almost 100% manure but I have excellent drainage and a covered stump. My stump does not have the tale tale signs of enlargement that accompanies GSB and I believe it is and will remain solid inside. But almost all the thoughts expressed in this thread are speculation. I think it will take some serious scientific study and experimentation to determine for sure what exactly is going on here and to find steps to eliminate the heartbreak caused by GSB. Until that happens this will remain a very controversial subject and most growers will shy away from grafted Carolina Cross plants and all the problems that are associated with them.

9/4/2014 7:29:31 AM

Corbin, KY

Oh but when it works it can be amazing!

9/4/2014 10:05:30 AM

The North Coast

Let us know about it Tim!!! We could use a success story. Do you know any?

9/4/2014 10:59:20 AM

Central Minnesota

I want to be the first to say that the grafts I got from N8 looked amazing. I tried grafting on my own and many of them failed. N8 saved me with a couple grafts at the last minute. I don't fault the graft or the person doing the grafting, these were done great. Right now I am doing my research on what more I can do to prevent the grafts from failing next year. It appears I could have done more on the systemic side of things that would be very specific to GSB. Not that it will prevent water backup and the eventual fail of a graft but I could have done more.

9/4/2014 11:48:18 AM

Grant, AL

Hey N8! Is double grafting a possible solution or am I talking about something that I know nothing about?

9/4/2014 1:48:57 PM

Bowdon, GA

I will admit the graft was the fastest growing melon I have ever seen in my patch until the stump issue. Also its fact that 3 of the 4 melons over 300lbs were grafts. I'm certainly not trying knock what your doing Nathan. I think if someone can figure out how to overcome the downside you can do it.

9/4/2014 11:09:37 PM

Princeton Kentucky

Charles B., Double grafting is in fact beneficial and I've had great success at it right up to the point of one rootstock out growing the other and causing fusion seperation. This winter I am going to try a double down vine graft so there is more flexability in the vine for greater movement with less pressure. Simply put, doing an approach graft at around 3 ft out on the primary scion. Right now I've got two outer vines on the same 291 Kent plant dragged over to each other and have two melon stems grafted to each other, clamped and dusted with sulfer, heck their healing pretty good to each other. Vine slack most important here. My thoughts next season are putting two seperate plants out and train two seperate vines towards each other from the seperate plants in hopes to graft two stems together and have one melon as the beneficiary and leave the trunk of the plants alone. Should be fairly easy the way these plants vine out everywhere. Hey if you don't try it you'll never know,lol. and yes I'm a Goober!

9/5/2014 8:02:53 AM

Grant, AL

Pumpkingoober, That sounds pretty cool! I never thought of grafting away from the stump and joining vines. All of the guys in this post sound like you really know your stuff. Can y'all recommend any good sources for me to learn more about grafting?

9/5/2014 8:56:13 AM

Garner, NC

Susie Zuerner grew 3 or 4, 200+pound melons on a single tradition plant. maybe 1 melon per graft plant is not enough of a outlet for the graft, what about growing 4 melons on a graft, and having a larger plant. Man that would be awesome, less patch space, and caring for one plant with 4 melons would be sweet.

9/5/2014 10:16:08 AM

The North Coast

I did post a few pictures in my diary about what I am seeing. It will take a bit for them to show up as usual.

@ Todd, Sorry to see your 316 go down.
@ Jake, That is the best looking watermelon stump that I have ever seen and no ill will perceived. This thred has been very informative. Interesting the noted vine pressure differnece between the two.
@ Charles B, Mr. Goober is the true frankenstein farmer. I like traditional side of things, it's hard enough for me to get right. The University of Arizona has a great selection of grafting videos on youtube. I have rootstock seed if you'd like some.
@pumpkingoober, It is fun watching your work. The AG rootstock is interesting. I shy away because it is not a commercial seed but the AG has to be the king of the land.
@Tennessee Dreamer, Did I hear tell that you got hitched? Congrats.

As for systemic fungicides, on a post in the Scientific Discussion board I linked a study on fungicides used to reduce the incidence of crown cankers due to GSB. In a further conversation with the author he noted that systemic fungicides that work for the leaves do not work well at reducing the crown cankers. In fact, none of them worked perfectly, the best could just reduce the incidence. He also mentioned that CC most likely has a greater than normal susceptability to cankers. In the study he could only get 20% of the grafted melons to produce cankers after intentional infection with GSB and no fungicide treatments. Also, he said that the spores for GSB are not present early in the year to give me GSB in my healing chamber. Early outbreaks of GSB are almost always due to infected seed. The Nunhems seed agreement for if you wanted to buy their watermelon seeds states that there is no way to 100% remove GSB from watermelon seed and that they follow industry standards for their seed production. I have emailed them for clarification on the subject but I am most likely not going to hear back from them.

9/5/2014 11:26:04 AM

The North Coast

In a nutshell, it may never be the holy grail that I thought it would be. We may not be able to get around GSB in the seed but every once in a while things go right and that's what keeps me going forward. I actually hold out hope that I am doing something wrong and someone else will find the way to do it right. That would be cool with me. I also am working on a work around for the rotting crown issue. It would not focus on eliminating GSB just eliminating the reason that the crown fails...to be continued. I will let some folks up north grow them out in the future. Most likely it will not be next year however.

9/5/2014 11:26:14 AM

The North Coast

Here is the link to my diary if you missed it.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=227828

I have been thinking about this water and pressure issue and there is another observation with the picture in the above link. The picture is looking at a cross section of the rootstock just below the graft. Take a look at the vascular bundles on the bottom and right and compare them to the vascular bundles on the top and left. It is easily seen where the watermelon had good attachment to the rootstock and where there was not good vascular alignment. This plant had the majority of it's water brought up one side. Possibly this could upset a balance in the watermelon? Another note is that this rootstock is not sending nutrients efficiently to the watermelon. Better vascular alignment would be much more efficient like with the single cotyledon method graft.

9/5/2014 3:47:52 PM

formerly RGG

You are brilliant Nathan. Please keep up the good work in helping to advance our hobby.

9/5/2014 9:10:31 PM

Princeton Kentucky

Heres a pic of the 260.5 Clementz Grafted to that AG rootstock I still have growing. Its as solid as solid is. Weeds over took it thats why all the green algae on it. When I took the first melon it was crystal clear on the fluid and I have another nice melon growing on this grafted plant. It may be dumb luck on this one but at this point I'll take dumb luck,lol.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=227874

9/6/2014 1:06:03 PM

Princeton Kentucky

TD you,ve got a good post going here. N8 again I looked at that pic of the melon trunk grafted in your diary and I truely believe that you have both a forward compression fracture and an aft stress fracture on the trunk above the grafted union. I ran several tests last year over the winter and found out for me, that if one lays down both the grafted and non-grafted melon plant in the permenant spot to grow it will have a much higher level of success from pulling of the setting vines. Over the years I have had several AG and Melon plants being pulled over dramaticaly by the vines setting & causing stress fractures and cutting off flow and I personaly feel that stump stress/blowout is primarily caused both on AG's and Melons from the trunk area being put in a bind from vine pulling thus causing hydrostatic pressure as if a valve above the trunk and or grafted trunk was being shut off. When I put my plants in, I am darn near laying the plant on its side and if you go to that link I posted above in my previous post you will see that particular AG/Melon graft is laying flat with zero issues. Again all of my plants both AG & melons are layed down in a half trench when planted to eliminate down pressure. This would aid your theory on Vascular Alignment, I just know it would sir. Maybe just maybe GSB is related to this stress? Last year I had 13 plants growing all but one was planted laying down. The one plant that leaked and went gooey was planted last minute straight up as everyone normaly does. Somthin to chew on. We as Humans get sick from stress too. Ok...I'll Shut up about it,lol.

9/6/2014 2:29:06 PM