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On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

It is getting to that time of the year when seed-saving should be considered. Those of you who are growing Delicious seeds received from the Hunts should definately save some as these are heirloom seeds and will grow true. The genetics of those seeds are the same as were in that 7+ pound tomato. There will be no need to look for any additional Delicious seeds because if you have them you have them. How the seeds produce for you is dependent on the usual variants such as soil, weather and the care they received plus some luck. Do not discard those Delicious seeds. If you are going for a big tomato save your seeds. Also when you name them they should simply be called "Delicious, Hunt Strain." This identifies the variety and that they are special seeds from the Hunts. Please do not attach your name to them and the weight of the tomato they came from as is not really necessary. These seeds are a stable heirloom variety. The seeds that have come from the Big Zac as grown by Tim Brant and the Harps is still probably not stable. So naming them is a bigger problem and one for which I have no good solution. You will need to keep track of where those seeds came from and the size of tomato they were harvested from. Somewhere in the future these seeds may be stabilized but not yet. Marv

8/24/2011 9:08:54 AM

Wow Marv the Hunt strain of delicious sure sounds like a great tomato. How would someone go about acquiring a couple of seeds? Are they available for purchase anywhere? Seems like making them available would really help to promote giant tomato growing.

8/24/2011 12:19:31 PM

Massachusetts

marv , how was your seed count on your first hunt tomato? i just cut up the 4.46 and the seed count was very good, question #2 if the hunts grew the 7.33 off of the 5.0 timm, should the hunts call there tomato the timm,s strain?, just trying to understand how we name the seeds or tomato.

8/24/2011 1:26:29 PM

Mastic Beach, New York

i'm lost on this one..lol and shouldnt nick call his timm strain big zac) i'm confused lol

8/24/2011 6:29:37 PM

Wv

lol

8/24/2011 7:50:56 PM

Wv

Sorry marv i kinda know what your saying buuut, if i grow them im putting them out there with my name and size, its only right! the hunts are great folks and they grew a great tomato which will be known for a long long time buuut they didnt start the strain and timm i dont think started it, but they put there names on the seed because they worked hard for that tomato and they are proud of it. MY NAME GOES WITH MY SEED.just keep track of the lines and pass them on to those getting your seeds. JUST MY TWO CENTS. TREETOP

8/24/2011 7:58:55 PM

Navarre,OH

I'm with TT on this one. When it comes to making an "heirloom" I think it has to be grown and seeds saves for 20 years or something like that. The delicious tomato has been around for a good while now. Timm and the Hunts just perfected it and made it more popular.
I have a huge one growing right now...you better believe my name is going on it!

8/24/2011 8:24:25 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

The Hunts grew their tomato using seeds from the variety Delicious. Their tomato had nothing to do with Big Zac. Since the behavior of the seed from their tomato is different from the run of the mill Delicious seed, it could be identified as the Hunt Strain. As far as the seeds originating from Big Zac, do whatever you like but in a few years there will be a real mishmosh of seeds with nobody knowing the genetics of the seed they are growing. The Big Zac is a hybrid and so each generation of seed will be a little bit different until the seed stabilizes, This could take 5 or more generations of seed. Finch, my seed count is below average. Marv

8/24/2011 8:49:35 PM

Navarre,OH

I see what your saying. Maybe we can list the strain since thats the important info needed and what we grew off of it in parentheses. Like 7.18 Harp(4.3 Shymanski)
I think the 4.3 Shymanski is a BZ.

8/24/2011 9:46:20 PM

Thanks for responding Marv. Don't worry about me I was able to find some.

8/24/2011 9:59:56 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Hmmmm. Lets see now how this would work. Treetop works for 10 years nurturing a seed he got from a big tomato in a farm market. He grows the seed for 10 years, each year picking the biggest tomato to take seeds from. After 10 years he sends me the seed, which he has named Treetop. I grow a 7 pound tomato from it and then send seeds to everyone and name them 7Marv11. Would treetop be happy with that?

8/24/2011 10:31:29 PM

Massachusetts

so what you are saying is that we must somehow trace back in time to who ever discovered the delicious tomato and call it ? (mr.smith) or who ever it is, just to not insult previous growers, i would be proud if someone grew a world record off of one of my seeds! as i'm sure you would be marv, if someone grew a world record off of your named seed the (mega marv). i,m sure bill rodonis is proud of the 1810 stevens, i understand the importance of keeping track of the genectics, i think just as long as you list on the seed packet where it came from, and registered it with the gpc or your local community, so there would be some kind of record of it, we should be ok, this is just my opinion, everyone has one, so lets listen to a few.:)and last i would be wanting treetops seed he nurtured for 10 years, your "7marv11" hasn't been proven yet, i think the 7.33 hunt has proven itself with me. ps how big is that mater you still have going??? scott.

8/24/2011 11:00:41 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Since Gordon Graham grew the World Record off of the Delicious strain wouldn't that now be called the "Graham" strain?

From what I understand the seed the Hunt tomato was grown off of was previously grown "for years" by Brant Timm so since he worked for years on it, wouldn't it be called the Timm strain?

IMO, The Giant pumpkin community has developed the perfect model for tracking pumpkin genetics and would also work very well for tracking these Big Tomatoes.
IMO, the ONLY time a person should have the right to name their own strain is when they have bred two seperate lines developing something different from the original parentage.

What gives anyone the right to take a heirloom variety that has been growing for a hundred years and put their name on it. You can buy a pig and call it a cow since you own it, but it's still a pig.

8/25/2011 5:57:04 AM

Muddy Waters

Amen ! Duane! I can grow a melon for then years its still a Carolina Cross my name just refers to the weight!If crossing different lines under extreme controlled conditions then rename it!But I would leave your EGO at Home and name it the DELZAC!!Mater!! There Alantic Giants not Howards Honeys!!or go back to 1904 Williams Whoppers!!Leave the Ego at home fellas!

8/25/2011 7:51:40 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Who is keeping a record of where all these tomato seeds people are naming for themselves came from? Is there a place I can go and see that, as an example and nothing against Treetop, that a 4.8 pound Treetop came from a 4.5 Timm that came from a 3.8 Timm? (I made the names and weights up for an example.). This exists for pumpkin seeds but I don't think it does for tomatoes. In a few years noone will know where any of the tomato seeds we are growing came from. There will be no family line. There will only be a one year history of the seed. You will know that Treetop grew it last year and got a 4.8 pound tomato. And if you name your seed and tomato after yourself and grow a 10 pound tomato, Treetop will never have the satisfaction of knowing it came from his seed.

And, if it is true that the Hunts grew their big tomato from seeds they got from Timm, who grew them for a good while, then maybe they should be called the Timm strain. I don't know the history of the Delicious seed the Hunts grew other than that it is the variety Delicious. Treetop, should a seed from a variety such as Delicious that was even grown by Gordon Graham be called something like Treetop 4.8? Marv LOL Duane, I'm with you.

8/25/2011 8:07:57 AM

Wv

I understand what your saying marv, but if you ask around of seeds iv sent to folks all over the world! they will tell you that the seed pack has the weight/name/strain/and the weights/names of the parentplants/great parent plants as far back as i can go. If you look at my diary every tomato i weighed also has the parent seed it came from, I dont name my tomatoes treetop stran! but they do get weight/name of mine.who wouldnt! you worked hard for it! TT

8/25/2011 10:25:04 AM

virginia

Duane and Marvin is Soooooo correct. It the truth ,,,,,,,greg

8/25/2011 11:31:06 AM

Massachusetts

THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH NOT USEING YOUR NAME ON A TOMATO THAT YOU SPENT ALL YOUR TIME GROWING, IS LETS SAY YOU GROW A NEW WORLD RECORD, , WE NOW MUST CALL IT THE HUNT STRAIN WORLD RECORD! AND OF COURSE AS MARV SAID AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS POST QUOTE: "DO NOT ATTACH YOUR NAME OR THE WEIGHT TO YOUR TOMATO," SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT MY NEW WORLD RECORD WILL NOW NOT BE A RECORD , NO ONE WILL KNOW THE WEIGHT AN ALSO NO ONE WILL KNOW WHO GREW IT? AM I GETTING THIS STRAIGHT? SO THE FINAL THING IS THEN IF WE CAN'T GET ANY RECONITION FOR OUR HARD EFFORTS, AND BRAGGING RIGHTS, WHAT THE HECK ARE WE GROWING THESE THINGS FOR? I AGREE WE NEED A TRACKING SYSTEM FOR THE MATERS.SCOTT

8/25/2011 12:45:52 PM

valparaiso, in

I thought we really only needed to worry about the number for it, like F4, F6, F7 with the name of the grower and the tomato that it was grown on?

8/25/2011 4:53:46 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

The name of the seed does not take away from a World Record. Gordon Graham holds that record and he grew the tomato using seeds from the variety Delicious. The seeds from his tomato were called Delicious. Delicious was and is an heirloom seed. Marv

8/25/2011 6:33:02 PM

Bowdon, GA

I don't grow Tomatoes so I maybe be way off base, but growers will remember the names. 157 Bright, 239 Leonard watermelons for example: just the mention of their names and you know the history. Say if one tomato grows a 1 pounder every time and the other grows a 7 pounder nearly every time, if they are grown on same variety,same strain, how do you know which seeds your getting? Or do tomatoes not work that way. Not trying to stir the pot just trying to learn a little more about tomatoes.

8/25/2011 6:46:48 PM

Navarre,OH

If I happen to mail someone seeds from my 7.18Harps,7.33Hunts or 4.3 Shymanskis I'm most def gonna list what kind of mater it really is. I think people just wanna know who grew the seed last and how big the fruit was. I don't wanna rename it I'm just gonna let the next person down the line know how big my Big Zac or Delicious is. I grow pink brandywines every year and so has my dad and so has my grandpa and my great grandpa. The brandywines I grow now are the same line my great grandpa grew. He always saved seeds and replanted each year just like me, my dad and grandpa did. We never called them anything else but Pink Brandywines. Last name is Brandyberry so I guess I don't need to change the name that much :P
I'm attempting to cross a pink brandywine with a big zac. Maybe if it works I'll call it a Brandy Zac. haha
I agree the original name should be kept and wrote on seed packets and also what the last grower grew from it.
No1 is renaming the tomato they are just letting people know what they grew from it!

8/25/2011 7:36:42 PM

Oswego,ny

I'm confused .
I'll just stick to the name and weight for now.

8/25/2011 9:09:15 PM

Muddy Waters

If I grow a WR from smiley & its the 8.13 Clementz & we know it came from the 3.6 Lyons Big Zac!Whats the issue??We can ask chris the family line,Im confused also, Whats the problem!
Start documenting folks in your hand written diarys!!

8/25/2011 10:39:17 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

Why not just use the same nomenclature we do for pumpkins?

And list the pedigree back a generation or two on the envelope....

8/26/2011 1:00:22 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

The problem with the naming of our tomatoes comes from the fact that the Big Zacs are a hybrid. Several growers decided to grow seeds from Big Zac. The end result was the huge Harp tomato which was a fifth generation Big Zac. Chris Lyons grew the first Big Zac in 2006. It weighed 4.59 pounds. He sent some seeds from that tomato to Frank Catapano who grew a 3.9 pound tomato. The seed that grew that tomato was Big Zac F2. Frank sent some of his BZ seed, now BZ F3 to Brant Timm.Brandt Timm grew, using the BZ F3 grew a 5.58 pound tomato and sent the F4 seed from it to Nick Harp and he grew the 7.18 pound tomato in 2009. All of these growers were generous and sent seeds all over the place. Every generation of these seeds is different. Marv

8/26/2011 7:39:32 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

The problem is that the seeds are not stable until the 5th or 6th generation. At that point if you remove a seed from a tomato you grow, that seed has a good chance of producing a plant and tomato similar to the one you took your seed from. Otherwise you have no assurance of what you will get. So we need good records. If you call your seed BillyBob and don't keep good records, all is lost, pretty much. There are a lot of seeds already from this line that have lost their history. So, be careful that you know the history of the seeds you grow or you may get small plants and small tomatoes. WIth heirloom seeds that have been grown for years this is not a problem. The seeds are stable and should grow true. Delicious, MegaMarv and Brutus Magnum are all heirloom tomatoes and need to have their names attached to them. If someone wants to add their name and got a huge tomato, no problem. However, their given variety heirloom name needs to be there somewhere. Marv

8/26/2011 7:46:36 AM

Massachusetts

thank you marv, scott.... :o)

8/26/2011 8:52:27 AM

Lexington, Ky

Is there anyway we can find out which generation of BZ's we're getting from Totally Tomatoes? Should I consider them as F1 and my subsequent offspring F2? In reality, the BZ's from Totally Tomatoes could be F4's or F5's couldn't they?

Another question, what should we expect after the strain "stabilizes"? Should weights continue to rise at F7 and higher generations?

Good stuff here!

8/26/2011 9:40:18 AM

Navarre,OH

MegaMarv is also an heirloom? Where the heck did you get those seeds?

8/26/2011 5:02:44 PM

Bowdon, GA

I see well explained

8/26/2011 9:53:18 PM