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Lymington UK

I’m curious to know is anyone knows of any scientific research on bud development of sunflowers.
The sort of ideas I would like to get some info on and other grower’s theories are.
Are the buds just programmed genetically?
Is it a day length thing? (Possibly days getting shorter)
It’s a massive crop commercially so the is a good chance some work has been done on this.
Just curious
Ian

2/13/2011 5:05:55 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Ian, good chance that lots of work has been done on commercial type sunflowers...prbly not a lot of scientific reasearch work done on tryin to grow tallest or biggest head!!! Maybe, the bud's are the same on both? That's why we come to bp.com!!! Thanks, Ken D.!!!! Peace, Wayne

2/13/2011 5:51:06 PM

Rochester, NY

This is a great question. Some seeds claim to have 120 day qrowing seasons and for the first season it may be true. I've saved seeds from these plants and grown them in consecutive seasons only to find the days to flowering get shorter and shorter. It seems plants acclimate to whatever latitude it's grown at. In theory the longer the growing period more time to grow tall.
Plants respond to the amount of daylight called photoperiodism. In a conterolled hydroponics environment growers trigger plants into flowering by adjusting the hours a plants gets. I think the moral of the story is to plant the seeds into the ground as early as possible, without being to cold, to take the most advantage of long day lengths.

2/13/2011 8:08:07 PM

Lymington UK

Well the way I see the scientific way of going is this:-
Commercially, this is a huge crop and the bigger the crop the more money for research.
That said, they will be looking for short,strong stems with a big flower on top. They don’t want any wind damage, they don’t want to waste money on feeding leaves and they want an easy crop to harvest.
I’m just wondering if finding out how to grow a sunflower short means they know how a sun flower grows tall.
At the moment I don’t grow sunflowers but if I did I think I would be looking at lighting as a starting point. Possibly giving the plants some “night break lighting” to try and kid the plant into not flowering. (Lighting for short intervals during the night to boost the photo chromes in the plant).
A lot of plants have these time clocks and rather than just plant the seeds and grow them well. Would it be worth trying something different?
I also think that heating may well have something to do with it as well.
I know these are just ideas but, it’s February, I’m bored and I think this is a fascinating subject.
It may well be that it’s just luck and if you get that tall or big flower seed and you grow it well, life is good, but I’m just not sure.

2/14/2011 2:39:58 PM

Lymington UK

Thanks for you ideas Steve. I have noticed that a couple of tall sunflowers have been grown on the North side of houses which may mean that the internodes get stretched with a lack of light and they get “taller.
Also if it is a time thing would growers be better starting them later in the year when the night temps are on average higher?

2/14/2011 2:51:36 PM

Rochester, NY

There are 2 different topics here, 1. reduction in light hours that induces flowering and 2. depriving plants of light to stretch them and get them tall. I tried growing them in an open top silo last year and had some amazing results. I could go on but it's 6:30 on valentines day and that is the priority right now. Hope to post later.

2/14/2011 6:31:04 PM

Netherlands

I believe Martien Heijms of the Netherlands grew his WR (he actually grew multiple WRs that year) in a cage in an opening amongst trees and covered the heads or in any case shaded them. I have seen the upside down pail on a pole method. As the sunflower grows the pail is raised.
I have grown sunflowers for many years but there seems to be a certain length they grow, so starting them too early actually negatively affects the growth here. I think you want them totally sheltered so all of the growth goes into height inside of stem thickness and you want them growing in the warmest temperature, which usually coincides with the longest days. I am not sure in how far light is actually the issue. Sunflower heads do not follow sunlight except at a young age when the stem is still pliable.

2/15/2011 2:22:29 AM

Lymington UK

Brad is the pail method used to etiolate the stems and stretch the stem between the leaves or for another reason.

2/15/2011 1:23:23 PM

Netherlands

The pail has pretty much the same reason as growing beside a house. Sunflower heads will always grow towards light, so if light is blocked by a pail or a wall, they will grow upwards. It's pretty similar to intentionally growing elongated seedlings by placing the light up higher.

2/15/2011 1:30:25 PM

Team Canuckle Heads

I have always used the pail method. This is how Fred Hain taught me and who is to argue with Fred's ways, he grows over 20' year after year.

2/15/2011 4:31:57 PM

Lymington UK

JLB is there any chance of a photo as I would be interested to see how it looks.

2/15/2011 5:26:00 PM

Rochester, NY

While I can't argue against 20' sunflowers grown every year I have a different idea regarding light deprivation. To encourage side growth hydroponic growers use side lighting which keeps plants from getting too tall and to promote bushy-ness. I don't know for certain but my guess is the plant registers sunlight from all of it's leaves and stems not just the growing tip. So while the bucket method could possibly explain tall plants I'm building a scaffolding looking structure against the south side of my barn and attaching burlap around it to protrect the plants from wind and to limit the amount of light they receive. Keeping the sunlight just out of reach. I tried it in a silo but there simply wasn't enough light energy to sustain a sunflower. I'll post pics in my diary tonight. The sunflower almost made but corn didn't work at all.

2/15/2011 7:34:36 PM

Waynesboro, Virginia

http://www.hort.cornell.edu/hightunnel/about/research/cutflowers/2009cutflowertrials.pdf Hey all.Maybe this will help answer a few questions.

2/15/2011 9:04:20 PM

Lymington UK

Thank you very much for that link, it’s exactly the sort of ideas I’m looking for. I’m sure if we find a trigger (if there is one) for bud formation if should be possible to really push the boundaries.

2/16/2011 12:00:06 PM

Lymington UK

Steve what's your diary name

2/16/2011 12:01:58 PM

Waynesboro, Virginia

Walang anuman (you're welcome).Looks like the trigger is variety oriented.I'm guessing the trigger for these giants is solstice or June 21.Can't recall ever seeing one bud out here before that date....Can you say lumens?Being a high energy large plant like that is going to need lumens to respond.You going to try it Ian?I may give it a whirl myself if I have time.

2/16/2011 1:15:08 PM

Rochester, NY

Diary name, Grower Steve. I posted some photos last night but they're not up yet.

2/16/2011 4:42:43 PM

Lymington UK

Most of the plants that are light sensitive only need a very weak light as a trigger, so just a normal house light will do. They also can be turned on for 10min and off for 10min in most cases as it’s just playing with the chemicals in the plant. In the growing industry it’s used to help get a crop to the right height e.g. Chrysanthemums.
But also the day length suddenly getting shorter can be a trigger as well.
Then you get the “long day leaf bud”, this is when regardless to the lighting some varieties produce a bud and it can normally be counted in leaves before the bud.
I’m just thinking wouldn’t it be amazing if someone worked it out and grew something completely ridicules. It could be just wishful thinking but I’m not so sure.
Ian

2/16/2011 5:19:42 PM

Lymington UK

Sorry Blue ridge I didn’t answerer your question.
There’s a big difference in lighting for growth and photo response. Grow lights are powerful and expensive to run things like on my diary.
At the moment I spend hours trying to work out how to beat the WR onion and although I really enjoy the challenge, I do drive my family mad at times. I’m not sure if I should take up Sunflower growing just yet. I might look for a few seeds and just put a couple in as an experiment, but at the moment it’s February, I’m bored and I find the subject fascinating.

2/16/2011 5:38:26 PM

Rochester, NY

Ian, you're right this is a fascinating topic. Last year knowing the silo plants probably weren't going to get enough light I bought a 1000 watt high pressure sodium grow light. I had read that the red spectrum it emits encourages legginess in plants. I don't know for certain but I don't think it had much effect. After a month or so I took it out so all the light the plants received was indirect sunlight. Anyone want a HPS commercial grade grow light? Trial and error can be costly.

2/16/2011 6:08:12 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Steve, maybe the sale of yer HPS grow lite, will bring in enough $'s to have every third brick removed from yer silo? LOL Just kiddin...Grow em Tawl!!! Peace, Wayne

2/17/2011 12:43:03 AM

Bethlehem CT

Take a look at this picture of how Don Radda grew his world record tall corn way back in the 40's. To my knowledge no one has even come close to breaking his record. http://thegazette.com/2009/09/30/iowas-tall-corn-contest/

2/17/2011 8:42:43 AM

Netherlands

Big Moon, actually quite a few growers have come close to that record and there are several unofficial measurements of taller ones.

By the way, the WR sunflower is probably the oldest record, dating back to 1567 (40 ft).

2/17/2011 9:22:23 AM

Lymington UK

I'm looking at that 40's WR by Don Radda and thinking that grower was an absolute genius. Just look at the ideas he’s using and back in the forty’s.
It’s no secret that I would like to get the onion world record which in my mind is technically one of the hardest world records to achieve. The reason it will be so hard to break is that a few amazing growers really thought about how onions grew and applied that to there crop. If we want to move forward we will have to think outside the box.
That is a great picture “Big Moon”and thank you very much for adding to this chat.

2/17/2011 3:05:27 PM

Rochester, NY

DB, Where did you read about the 1567 record of 40'?

2/17/2011 4:23:15 PM

Rochester, NY

Check out this picture and video, http://www.giantgardening.com/rec_corn.php

This guy was unbelievable!!

2/17/2011 5:08:51 PM

Rochester, NY

PW, I had the same thought about removing a brick here and there but hesitated because I kept having this mental image of me lying dead under a few thousand lbs of old silo cement after I removed the wrong brick. My wife and family would then have to explain to the firemen that I was trying to grow a really tall sunflower.

2/17/2011 8:57:28 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Good choice Steve...I prbly woulda hammered the bricks out!!! LOL Any research done, to try and find the Radda seeds? Although, w/ his methods...I could prbly use most any tawl corn seed, and grow it tawler!!! Now the project begins!!! The lil barrel covered w/ burlap bags aint so tough, but how to raise it a lil every day could be a big project!!! I do have a old TV antenna tower(almost 30' tall) tho??? The wheels are a turnin!!! LOL Peace, Wayne

2/17/2011 10:56:07 PM

Netherlands

First of all, there are no Radda seeds out there. Second of all, just a few years ago a number of corn stalks were grown that were considerably taller, several of them between 34 to 39 feet. They were not entered at a competition. Radda was certainly a great grower, but it seems that the 40s in Iowa and Indiana were very good for growing corn because quite a few growers got close to the 30 ft back then using a technique I am going to try this year and not tell you...lol. After the 40s nobody (including Radda) seemed to be able to get up to the 30 ft mark until the 1990s.
If you think Radda was a genius in 1940, the 30ft mark got just missed in 1899 already by another grower.

2/18/2011 2:43:39 AM

Netherlands

In about 1565 sunflower seeds were taken from South or Central America to Europe by Spanish explorers. They were given to a number of growers in different places and the results were recorded in a scientific document (I haven't been able to trace the exact document). All that I know is that a grower in Padua (North Italy) grew one of them seeds to a height of 12 meters (40 ft). The same bunch of seeds seemed to reach 8 meters (26 ft) quite consistantly in other places. It would seem that the 40 ft one was a freak or a wrong measurement, but 8 m is the current WR (from Germany) so very plausible.

2/18/2011 2:48:45 AM

Rochester, NY

PW, do what I did and get a couple telephone poles installed. There is a local electric installation company that installs the poles so I went down and started asking for old poles. One of their workers had saved a few. I bought 2 30' poles for $25 ea. Found a for hire bobcat/with a backhoe and he installed them both for $200. Not too bad compared to my grow light cost.

2/18/2011 6:29:21 PM

Rochester, NY

Here is a very interesting back and forth between someone who went by linu5 and Brian from NJ. Although they were about to duke it out there's a lot of good tall corn info here, http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/giants/msg081144148808.html

2/18/2011 7:09:28 PM