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Decatur, Indiana

It's kind of quiet in this forum so let's pass the time until planting season.

So I got my hands on a 1626 Gantner and only have room/time for one more plant. What would you guys cross it with to get a guaranteed nice deep orange HD quality genetic specimen? I'd also like to have it on the positive side of the ott charts (or close to it) if possible. Let's to keep the pollinator above 1500lbs too.

I've got my ideas, but what would you do? I'm still open to other options.

3/6/2019 9:54:21 PM

Syracuse, NY

Initially, you won't get anything different than you are going to anyway THIS year, in case you didn't know. the pollinator this year will NOT affect this year's outcome.
this should blow your mind, though: MY opinion is, ya'll, that the SEEDS inside the fruit are just like CORN...THEIR characteristics will be the first result of the latest cross...HAAAHHH??? oh, by the weigh, self it.
and get another 1626, lol---eg---for your stipulation of 1500+, a 1912 Carter could be interesting for pollination, it's just very late for research here for me, but, IIIIII'd
look for a:

http://tools.pumpkinfanatic.com/fruitImages.php?PN=351.6%20Gantner%202013

http://tools.pumpkinfanatic.com/FruitProgeny.php?FruitName=351.6%20Gantner%202013

yes, 351.6...

"Man, there was ORANGE everywhere...I...I didn't
know what to do!" eg

3/7/2019 4:10:11 AM

Decatur, Indiana

Yeah I understand the cross won't affect this season's kin. And I'm highly considering selfing it. Just wondering what else to plant. Definitely want to plant another orange.

I didn't even think about the 351. Any suggestions on who to get in touch with for one of those seeds?

3/7/2019 6:19:49 AM

Orient, Ohio

1810 werner would be interesting, not dark orange but shape, size, and heavy.

3/7/2019 9:00:02 AM

Adam123 , I would put up a seed request with your email and there's a fairly good chance Mr. Gantner will answer it. Should have been planted a lot more.

3/7/2019 10:07:47 AM

Decatur, Indiana

I'll most likely self it. But I think in my other spot, I'm gonna plant a 1567 Gantner as well. I'll probably self it too. Most of the 1626 seeds have produced nice shiny orange kins, but I've seen one or two that had a lot of that cracked skin texture. And not sure what the 1567 is gonna do because of the pollinator 1418 Lehrer plant.

Who knows tho. I still have a few weeks before starting anything so I'll probably change my mind another thousand times...

3/9/2019 8:35:32 PM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

Self it

3/29/2019 6:31:50 PM

Georgia

Self it and if your pumpkin has that deep solid orange color send me a few seeds. :-)

3/30/2019 8:55:05 AM

Sonora, CA

Why does the pollinator this year not affect this year’s outcome. Still learning since this is my third year. I am planting a 2152 Gantner; and wonder if I should self it after reading this thread. Any thoughts from you experts.

3/30/2019 11:03:05 PM

Syracuse, NY

i have my own ideas about what to self or not, but you can do whatever you want per what other growers will say about it, of course---now, think of the seeds from your pumpkin as a bunch of college students in a classroom---they're not gonna do anything different than they already can do UNTIL they go out into the world and do 'great things'; they are affected BY the cross-pollination/learning that HAS taken place - NOT the classroom/PUMPKIN itself; also, if you look into CORN at all, most times there is a recommendation on the packet suggesting a minimum distance FROM other corn to plant your own. this is because the CORN is what you eat and will be affected BY the pollination...of THAT year. this is the only difference that i know of---eg

3/31/2019 1:36:48 AM

Morgantown, WV

Carla,

The current year pollinator simply sets everything into action. Without it, the ovary dies, and nothing happens. Short of germ tube initiation, the paternal genes recombine with the maternal genes within the seeds for the next generation.

The current year's combination of genes will have been set from the previous two parents within the seed itself, and will grow accordingly to how strong either parent or both were. Some may grow like mom, some like dad, and some both.

We like to guess about genetic combinations around here like they're fairly simple, but they're actually quite complicated, and even experienced geneticists can only give an "educated determination" of what may happen in a cross without using gene splicing in a lab, and even that has unintended side effects sometimes.

3/31/2019 7:53:47 AM

Morgantown, WV

The key to a good self-cross on a seed like the 2152, or anything else that has recently been crossed to an unknown, is simply luck. Even the darkest red-orange pumpkins won't show a streak of color until day 20-30, so it is impossible to guess the final shape, color, and size of pumpkin AT pollination.

I will also be growing the 2152 this year, and my honest opinion is that there will probably be an assortment of colors that come out of that seed this year. Self one that ends up going tan, well, you just strengthened what you weren't looking for. Self one that looks like mama, you probably got yourself a hot sack o seeds.

Truth is, the only difference in those two scenarios was luck. Same intent on both, but different outcome. The more people who grow the same seed and self it, the better chance you have of that special one emerging in someone's patch. I believe this is why Joe Ailts has assembled an army...

3/31/2019 8:15:18 AM

Sonora, CA

Wow Dustin, I just learned a ton. Thank you so much. I will be selling it. Maybe I will have a hot sack of seeds! Thank you too, pumpkinpal2 for your info.

3/31/2019 8:14:19 PM

Sonora, CA

I meant selfing it, not selling it.😀

3/31/2019 8:16:47 PM

Syracuse, NY

A double 'Awww???' lol---anytime---eg

3/31/2019 10:34:22 PM

Sonora, CA

I have no idea why all those numbers came up at end of my post. Thanks again.

4/1/2019 1:09:26 AM

Morgantown, WV

Since you're a good student Carla, those crazy symbols and numbers usually pop up if you try to put an emoji at the end from your phone... have to do them old-school like this -> :)

4/1/2019 5:42:33 AM

Sonora, CA

Thank you—I should have known that being a retired business teacher :)

4/1/2019 8:41:00 PM

Grittyville, WA

I expect the offspring of the 2152 to look like this: http://tools.pumpkinfanatic.com/FruitProgeny.php?FruitName=2043.5%20Clementz%202017

4/3/2019 2:05:56 AM

Grittyville, WA

Any chance of a really good orange is worth taking. But adding just one muted/opaque gene... the genetics usually seem to want to go in all other directions.

4/3/2019 2:13:15 AM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

Self it... I think we need to self more often.. not every single time however once and a while we need selfed fruits.. lock in good and bad and only hope for the good ones the genes that is to show back up

4/3/2019 9:30:03 PM

Syracuse, NY

So, lemme ask y'all this: If I were to have, say, 4 pumpkins on a plant and it generally was a plant that I myself have geared toward orange or is well-known for orange already and I am selfing every pumpkin I have on it (4), is the consensus here to keep the seeds from the ORANGEST pumpkin on that plant in hopes of preserving THAT pumpkin's genes because it is NOW exhibiting the ORANGEst characteristic that I'm hoping for in subsequent progeny from THAT selfing?
Just wondered. eg

4/4/2019 1:42:10 AM

Morgantown, WV

I would say, in theory, you are correct, the orangest one would be the winner. I do not however think that you will get very different pumpkins off of the same plant. One may end up a different shape due to pollination factors, but the color will be expressed fairly evenly across the 4 as the plant will not just turn genes on or off for different pumpkins on the same plant.

I feel a better scenario, would be to self one pumpkin on the plant, and put a second on it with a different pollinator. This gives you two copies of mom, with different dads. Once you determine which father was better (the self father or outcross)work with the one more in line for what you were looking for.

4/4/2019 7:28:20 AM

Guelph, Ontario

There is no orangest pumpkin on same plant, genetic wise. Colour of pumpkins would be genetics, plus environment. So if one is more orange, it is a random thing. Best one would be one with most orange pollen parent.

4/4/2019 11:27:53 AM

Decatur, Indiana

I agree with what Dustin and irishcap are saying. I did that with two of my plants last year as the main vines broke off before I was able to set a pumpkin on it. One plant had 5 pumpkins and the other one had 3(or 4, can't remember) and each plant's pumpkins showed the same color and skin textures a the others on that same plant.

And to go even a little further, all three of my plants were from the same pumpkin's seeds from 2017. All the pumpkkns were all somewhat similar, but had slight variations in the color tones between plants. You could pick out which pumpkins went with which plant because of this.

4/4/2019 2:05:11 PM

Grittyville, WA

Interesting. The pollination date, sun, temperature, and even nutritional variation within the plant could all create slight differences on the same plant. But genetically they should be the same. Ive seen shape & tone differences.

4/4/2019 2:53:05 PM

Plymouth, MN

Clementz's two on one plant experiment last year is a well documented example of the same/similar color on the same plant.

I agree with others that genetics should predispose color--you're incredibly unlikely to see one plant throw one beautiful orange and another ugly pumpkin. I won't say never as weird things like chimreism or jumping genes could theoretically happen. Sun/UV exposure could also cause some subtle fruit-to-fruit differences on one plant.

One thing I've been musing is whether there's a diluting effect of size on pigmentation. Most of the prettiest pumpkins are smaller. It's my understanding that there's a fixed number of cells in the fruit. Could there be a fixed amount of pigment in these cells? I'm thinking of the same sort of effect you see with a baloon--the color gets somewhat diluted as you blow it up.

4/4/2019 3:32:03 PM

Morgantown, WV

I think it is focus of the plant to put it simply. It can be seen in many different vegetables where some varieties are bred for size and number of fruit while others are bred for nutritional value, or disease resistance, with yield being a secondary attribute that you hope for, but aren't necessarily chasing.

Using something like cannabis as a similar comparison, it is often seen that the more potent varieties (higher THC, CBD contents) are rarely the largest yielding varieties. Often, the largest plants with the best yields are not the most potent. I feel it is a relationship where the plant only has so much energy output total, and it can focus strictly on growing massive, with little else going on (secondary metabolites like pigment, epicuticular waxes, resin, etc.) or it can give up some energy in growth for the aforementioned secondary metabolic processes.

4/4/2019 6:01:28 PM

Morgantown, WV

I'm no geneticist, nor do I have the biggest pumpkins around. I have grown some pretty ones though, and learn well through seeing and doing. These ideas are dangerous in some people's minds... but some of what I think about while I'm tending my plants. They are not completely accurate, nor are they out of line for conversation, merely something to consider.

These guys who buff their pumpkins prior to a weigh off... been a lot of talk about it here... it does in fact make a difference in gloss with JUST a cotton cloth. The surface waxes mentioned earlier are what keep the pumpkin waterproof. It is on the fruit just the same as it is on all leaves, be it in varying degrees. Brassicas, for instance, have incredible surface waxes that shed water like nothing else. These waxes are microscopically branched to reduce the surface tension of water to allow it to bead and roll off rather than stick to the skin of the fruit. Buffing with a cotton cloth simply spreads out these branched waxes into a smoother, shinier layer.

That said, not all orange pumpkins have that gloss, do they? Typically the ones going just a bit bigger start to lose the shinyness? Perhaps some of that "wax energy" shifts over to increase "growth energy"... I do notice that many of the biggest ugliest pumpkins out there have a rough texture to the skin suggesting that as the pigment gene dilutes, so does the wax layer, but often size is a benefit of that change.

4/4/2019 6:17:06 PM

Ontario

Dustin I disagree with the cannabis comparison.....proof?

4/4/2019 8:46:35 PM

Grittyville, WA

I tried buffing one of mine... Out of curiosity NOT to win. I agree they should arrive to the weigh off natural and if you want to buff them for display thats fine after the weigh off. Maybe some have wax and some dont. It did not change one bit.

4/4/2019 11:10:03 PM

Grittyville, WA

cjb I was wondering about that dilution thing also. But other than gaining white scabs I have not noticed dilution. There can be sunbleaching or underdevelopment of pigment if the pumpkin is young. Or lacks nutrients? But I dont think they dilute.

4/4/2019 11:16:43 PM

Morgantown, WV

GT, I think there is a lot of evidence out there. OG Kush, for specific example, is one of the bases for an overwhelming number of strains, just as the 2145 has become for sake of comparing cannabis to pumpkins. If you have one of the original Cali cuts, it is notorious for being very potent, but a bit finicky and not the best yielding. This is one of the reasons it has become such a parental figure in the industry. It passes potency as well as other desirable characteristics such as a dominant terpene profile to other, more desirable mothers that can add to it's framework and easy of cultivation.

Blue Dream, for a secondary comparison of difference, overwhelmed the market as well, though not for the same reason. It gave growers bumper crops of decent flowers, but with wide selection on the market, it just wasn't measuring up to the potency of others, and thus, was quickly discounted on shelves and moved eastward to people with less options.

If you feel differently, that is fine, I don't mean to make this a cannabis chat. I was simply trying to relate energy spent with areas that it goes to and engage thought in that idea. Cannabis is a growing topic here, with valuable secondary metabolites that can be measured by the eye in resin concentration at its simplest. We do not test pumpkins for carotenoids, so the closest we may get is looking at them and making an educated determination about what causes what.

4/4/2019 11:38:18 PM

Ontario

Hey Dustin I still disagree with you but I do respect your knowledge of the cannibis you described however we have been working on our own strain for the past 4 years and we have bigger and more potent plants every year, I didn't mean to turn this post into a cannibis discussion either and I apologize to adam123 but maybe there should be a cannibis board added for these discussions ?

4/5/2019 10:18:36 PM

Morgantown, WV

OK GT, I agree. I don't like when threads are hijacked for alterior purposes, so let's go general, and have a good discussion!? Everybody is welcome provided the talk is constructive.

Adam, I hope we sorted at least something out for you. If not, keep asking and someone will sort you out. You're on the right track young man, press forward!

4/6/2019 8:50:54 PM

Decatur, Indiana

It's ok guys. I'm gonna self it. I think I'm gonna self all of my kins this year. Hopefully out of the 2-3 kins, I can get at least one with HD quality/pedigree seeds.

4/6/2019 9:53:40 PM