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Princeville, IL

Sorry to dominate posts on this board but another question. Moving forward in this big orange world and trying to produce consistent big orange —do you think the best way is growing the big oranges ( ex. 1810 Werner) and pollinating with great orange ( ex 811 Gerhardt) or great orange pollinated by big orange. I know some will say make both crosses but I am looking at several big oranges pollinated by the same great orange or several great oranges pollinated by the same big orange. Hope someone understands the question. :)

1/30/2020 9:27:01 PM

Plymouth, MN

I think the best way for consistent big orange is to self. We have lots of good crosses to try from the last year, whether they're big orange X big orange or big orange selfs already. Grow them, self them.

1/30/2020 9:50:23 PM

Savage, MN

I am no expert but either way you go you would be getting the same genetics. Its just the question if you want to contaminate a nice orange with a less nice big kin. Or if you want to slow the size of a big pumpkin in future generations by pollinating with a smaller orange. Personally if I had a big orange seed like the 1810 I would go with craig's advice and self it. But then I would pollinate the smaller orange with the big orange. But thats just my opinion and what do I know I've only been growing for a year.

1/30/2020 10:21:53 PM

Saunders County, NE

I am interested in attempting 2112 Skinner (1810 werner self) X 1753 Bernstrom (1791 Werner Selfed) or X 1872 Sippel (1501 selfed) or 981 Grubbs (1734 Clementz selfed) or X 1734 Clementz (1317 Clementz selfed). I think taking bigger orange selfed than crossing is a strategy worth exploring. There are probably more good examples good to chart orange selfs on PumpkinFanatic that I am missing.

1/30/2020 10:51:44 PM

Grittyville, WA

If you want nice pumpkins to sell or display then plant pretty seeds pollinate with big/ & possibly ugly That's how I figure it. The breeding might not work out the way you want, but you'll end up with more saleable pumpkins going this route?

Do you find the orange ones sell better? Or does the color not matter?

1/30/2020 11:12:38 PM

Princeville, IL

Orange sales better but I am increasingly getting customers that what the biggest orange pumpkin I have. The bigger the pumpkin the more money I get. The more big orange pumpkins I have to sell the better. This is my reason for looking or trying to make a consistent big orange producer. As mentioned above maybe selfing the big oranges that occurred from selfed fruit is the best way to go.

1/30/2020 11:31:38 PM

Massillon, Ohio

I took the question to mean......Are there certain genes more likely to be phenotype expressed by the pollinator seed,or by the mother seed? And vise versa. In other words......Might you expect an oranger progeny if the orangest pumpkin is used as the mother seed or as the pollinator seed? And vise versa. Or, might you expect a bigger progeny if the biggest pumpkin is used as the mother seed, or as the pollinator seed? Or vise versa.

I know many will say that if you throw the genetics of the mother seed and the pollinator seed into a pot and stir them up,the progeny will be a product of what's dominant and recessive, and how they come together. I'm not sure it's that simple.

So,Joe.....I didn't answer your question! Just some of my thoughts that I've also wondered about. This year I will be growing my reverse crosses - 1810 x 1501 and 1501 x 1810. One rounder than the other - one bigger than the other - one oranger than the other. Can't wait to see how the pumpkins turn out! But of course, that won't really prove anything! Best of luck to all you orange growers!

1/31/2020 9:09:52 AM

Iowa

If it's for a one time sale and not considering what the crossed seeds will grow, then think you would have more luck consistently growing big pumpkins with a big mother seed crossed either self or with the little orange. Thought being that the pollinator has no bearing on what this year's fruit looks like. If a seed is already a proven large producer it should produce larger fruit on average for you. If you're going to grow the crosses in the future then it is somewhat of a crapshoot. Large mothers should be a better bet also here but since there is a difference in expressed vs genetic potential there's nothing that says a smaller mother seed can't go big in the right growers hands. Point I'm trying to make there is I generally get a pumpkin half the size than better growers using the same seed. Odds are I'm not always getting the worst seed out of the pumpkin that leads to those results, it's my growing environment and my abilities i.e. expressed results. Potential of those seeds based on other grower results say the potential is much more than my expressed results.

1/31/2020 7:08:56 PM

Syracuse, NY

Since i typed a bunch on the other 'Big Orange X' (hint) post in HD Orange, i'll just ask and say this:
if squash have gone from 1500 - 2218 in a short time by most-likely crossing the biggest of them by the biggest of them,
perhaps the biggest orange by the biggest orange for a few years would be the weigh to go---i think the 2152 Gantner X either the 2517 and/or 2005 Haist AND the reverses would be a good start, since the 2517 is already a SELF of the 2005 and the 2005's 3+ results were all at least medium-orange...
the 2152 has been selfed so far by 5 growers, and each of their names is somehow grammatically similar to the others' names that have done so---lotta Zs, Is and Cs...pretty interesting---eg

2/1/2020 3:56:10 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

The best would be big and orange x self so long as the pumpkin is truly HD caliber at maturity. A crap shoot since let’s face it, most big and orange like the 1810 still never produced close to what a 1059 type seed could grow. 1810 type HD winners generally win, IMO, because no one showed up to the weighoff having grown a true HD candidate. Every now and then we get one though. Like the 2152- imagine if that had been selfed. A door would be unlocked and we’d all be pouring through it. But usually the pumpkin grown for a 1810 type seed is big and orange but not HD if you know what I mean. And selfing in that scenario gets your seed overlooked by the HD group wanting something prettier and also overlooked by the heavy crowd who would rather plant something bigger and heavier having no interest in its slightly orange attributes. So what is the best cross. For me it is orange mother big father. Because HD growers like to see the prettiness and imagine the big, not the other way around. And that’s what this is all about, getting your seed planted by as many growers as possible. Otherwise it’s just a cross scribbled on a coin envelope. Hope this helps.

2/5/2020 9:09:44 AM

Princeville, IL

Lots of good insight posted Thanks.

2/5/2020 11:50:05 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I don't have any real evidence to which is better, but I like the orange(female) X big(male). It seems the 359 Foss would be an example of this. I'd prefer the big(male pollinator) to have a good chance at throwing orange as well. Is this really better than big X orange? I don't know.

2/5/2020 9:59:15 PM

Guelph, Ontario

In this case using orange for female and a big orange carrier is not the best route. The colour is mendelian genetics, so direction of cross will not have any effect on percentage of orange , or quality of the colour.

But, the size is very much related to the maternal genes. The mitochondria and plastids genes. These are inherited only through the mother plant.

So to increase size, using one orange crossed with a carrier, is to use biggest one as mother plant.

2/6/2020 12:25:09 PM

Georgia

irischap breaking out the hardcore science with "mendelian genetics." I had to look that up.

"Mendelian inheritance refers to an inheritance pattern that follows the laws of segregation and independent assortment in which a gene inherited from either parent segregates into gametes at an equal frequency."

2/6/2020 12:49:05 PM

Grittyville, WA

Did the wr squash get paternal green and maternal mitochondria/ plastids? Worth a look maybe... but I cant at the moment.

2/6/2020 1:57:40 PM

Plymouth, MN

Where did you get that size has anything to do with the mitochondrial and chloroplast genomes?

2/6/2020 2:50:08 PM

Grittyville, WA

For pumpkins... Its theoretical its not proven? I am not even sure plants have mitochondrial dna.

2/6/2020 3:48:58 PM

Grittyville, WA

Says they do online. Chloroplasts are where the sugar is made and mitochondria is where its turned into energy. The dna of these cell parts (organelles) could make a difference. If they are in fact maternally inherited then due to their important function their dna could have an impact.

2/6/2020 4:07:45 PM

Grittyville, WA

Hope I got that approximately correct...

2/6/2020 4:09:12 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Irischap in terms of knowledge and discussions held on this site it’s a pretty big leap to state that color and shapes are influenced equally by male and female contributors. Even more so probably that size is influenced only by the mother pumpkin. Has there been research that demonstrates this specific to Atlantic giant pumpkins? I don’t care so much about extreme weights but to those growers who selected seeds based on “power on both sides” of which there are a lot of growers, this has, ehem, heavy implications.

2/6/2020 5:57:49 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Sorry I interjected shape into the statement which is not part of the discussion.

2/6/2020 6:01:18 PM

Dillsburg, PA

I’ve planted a lot of selfed seeds over the last 20 years for the characteristics I prefer. This is in my opinion the way to consistently get orange and heavy weights from a genetic line. As Jim mentioned the 2152 if selfed would have been a great candidate for beautiful color and heavy weight. Hopefully more people who plant seeds with heavy size potential that also produce a beautiful pumpkin on occasion will self theirs.

2/6/2020 6:59:13 PM

Plymouth, MN

Would love to see what you're citing on the organelles. I'm not a plant scientist. That said, the mitochondria has a pretty minimal genome, at least in humans and mammals. Most genes that encode for mitochondrial proteins are found in the nucleus and would expect equal contributions from both parents.

2/6/2020 8:08:57 PM

Guelph, Ontario

It is pretty basic genetics that it works this way in plants.

I have a lot of information on reverse crosses on my face book page. Chuck Chapman, if you wish to look it up. It is a topic I have researched in depth over the years. And I have extensive plant genetic training and experience.

When I discussed it with plant breeding experts at U of Guelph, they all do it that way. No not AG, but it is something the same in all plants. When you want a plant growth characteristic of any kind, use the best growth factor parent as pod parent.

Colours are simple Mendialian traits determined by nucleus genes. It is the final combination that makes a difference, without regard of which parent the genes came from.

2/6/2020 8:17:09 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Wow guess all those C Maxima Winter Squash x AG were wrong. The outcomes must have been flawed or freaks' of nature. When they produce mixed off spring some looking like the mother other taking on the characteristics and size of the father.

2/6/2020 8:28:43 PM

Guelph, Ontario

Engel, the first generation of a winter squash X AG should be all the same in F1. The variation would come in F2. If you have information as to it being otherwise, I'd love to see it.

To back that direction of cross does not make a difference, you need to have both crosses to compare to. If you have anything to support what you are saying I'd be happy to look at it.

I've looked at this thoroughly. Have dome a good number of reverse crosses and compared them. Some of this information is on my Facebook page.

2/8/2020 10:22:04 PM

Guelph, Ontario

In any wide cross, where each line has distinct characteristics, such as a winter squash X AG, each and every seed of this cross has half it's chromosomes from one parent , and the other half from the other parent.

In the F1 (first generation seed) they will all be the same. They all have the same sets of genes, one from each parent. It is only when you cross sibling x sibling (second generation, of F2) that you get sorting out of chromosomes. For each pair of chromosomes that are different , you get different combinations. Variation of different combinations for each set to the power of the number of different combinations, gives you the number of variations in offspring F2. The more genes that are different, the more seeds you have to grow to get all the possible variations.

And of course there are some where direction of cross will make a difference.

2/8/2020 10:44:12 PM

Guelph, Ontario

Size is a multi-genetic factor. Most of the genes are nuclear genes, so direction of cross will not make a difference for these nuclear genes. If the maternal genes, plastids and mitochondria, are the same ( as will be the case with many AG) , then direction of cross will not make a difference.

The plastids and mitochondria are involved in energy production, and this plays a big role in plants.


While in many cases the direction of cross will not make a difference, in those cases where it does, the better results will be with bigger parent as pod parent.

2/9/2020 9:02:02 AM