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Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ spacemaster400@earthlink.net

Think of a world without the 723,846,845,805,898, 1097,1068 and all of the other very popular seed stock. Face it there are fewer left every year due to many being planted with great success, and thus the price rises through the roof. Now the question is which seeds will be the next record producers, will it be from the offspring from these genetics ?? Or will something we least expect happen with a different cross that does not have any of these genetic lines in it ?? Well It seems it is getting harder and harder to find a seed cross these days that does not have the mentioned above genes in it. How many time can we keep inbreading the same genetics before the vigor is bred out, does a new genetic line need to be bred to buffer this could be problem or will it even be a problem ?? But the real question is which line up will be the new hot seeds of the future as the number of the seeds mentioned above is rapidly decreasing but their offspring are very plentiful.. Just a thought I have been thinking about for years. Thanks...JK

11/14/2006 2:15:53 AM

That State Up North

1177 Conley (the father plant grew a 1333 making an average weight for this cross of 1255)
this seed combines the best of the best
723 Bobier, 846 Calai, 845 Bobier and 898 Knaus (1068 Wallace)
Missing the 1097, so odds are it won't split
Seems to me it is quite unlikely to see a new top seed that does not rely heavily on what has been successful in the past.

11/14/2006 3:25:19 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

The recent past or the distant past?

11/14/2006 5:28:02 PM

Cincinnati,OH

If you were just looking at the 898s lineage 5 years ago before it was proven to grow heavy progeny, nothing would indicate that it would be "the" cross for an 845 Bobier.

11/14/2006 7:13:30 PM

Netherlands

The 582 Hester 01 is rated one of the best 10 ever. There are none of the parents you mentioned in its background.

11/15/2006 10:46:27 AM

Greencastle, PA

the 582 is an offspring of the 935 Lloyd and 567.5 Mombert though.

11/15/2006 7:20:29 PM

Lexington, Ky

Recent vs distant past is a "how many have been planted" issue....past doesn't matter, planting does. If the genes are there, it will produce (conditions prevailing).


P.S. Good point Ron R.

Jamie

11/15/2006 9:17:22 PM

Abbotsford BC

I think there is enough variety in seed stocks, and enough interested growers around the world to continue successful plantings.

That being said, it would be nice if there was greater availability of strains of successful seeds that are inbred (selfed or sibbed) several times for several generations. These seeds could then be "crossed" with other inbred lines in hopes of developing better "strains" of genetics for future generations of seeds. I think one of the barriers to this kind of seed development is that everyone seems to be looking for the next "great cross", rather than taking the time to develop lines of seeds that could contribute to a future "great cross".

Just my two cents.

11/16/2006 1:33:12 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I agree Tony. It takes time, patch space, and dedidation to develope an inbred line. I wonder if Mr. Welty doesn't have some inbred lines going? There are a number of seeds out there that have been selfed at least twice, if someone wants to take it from there, and save a couple of years.
I'm thinking of maybe concentrating on one seedline to inbreed.

11/16/2006 2:27:15 PM

President - GPC

Agree, but one thing I have noticed......Seen many comments this year about dwindling seed counts.....not all but several "BIG" genetic pumpkins, most selfed, have not produced the seed counts one would hope for. Genetically speaking like the animal kingdom, doesnt continuous repeat breading eventually end up in a dead end species, mother nature weeds is out by its ability not to reproduce anymore due to limited or sparse or steril seeds. It is my belief. that sooner or later we do need to rejuvanate the strain, toss that 848 Greenie in there...refresh the genes. Just my thought and Im going to try some of these "project" next year.....It will take time to prove it out, but what the heck what else do we have? One other thing I noticed.....seems many of the great seed lines if you go back far enough at one time or another had an selfing and yes a "open" involved, not always........ but its there! Interesting ehh? just enought to make a difference?
Im wanting to chat with some of the experienced out there on this subject......paps, Nic, Tom, Quinn, Howard, U scientists.....others....... this is my science project.......Email me

11/16/2006 2:31:43 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Wiz,
Take butturcup squash for an example....it's a selfed(or sibbed), many times over, squash.....as are many other non-hybrid maxima species squash. I've never heard of low seed counts being a problem in them. They produce squash of pretty consistant shape, color, and size.

11/17/2006 1:19:50 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Jamie, my question about "past", recent vs. distant, is a genetics question based on Nic's previous idea. I am questioning Nic and everyone about how far back we should look in a seed's lineage to say with a reasonable amount of certainty, this is the cross from which today's successes can be attributed.
In this line of thinking, the past does matter. In fact it is the key. Do we only go as far back as the 723, 845, 846 and 898 crosses? Or, do we go further back in the past and look at the commen thread between these crosses and look at the 827 Holland or the 567.5 Mombert? Maybe the key crosses were well before that lying instead with Helmut's 609 '89, Alan's 579.5 '86 or maybe the 390 Gancarz '84 I know someone who thought he made an important cross way back when. He even named his cross.
My point is(for whatever it's worth), the genetics(crosses) of the past are what are responsible for our superior strains. Are we helping or hurting our attempts for greater weights by so focussing on only moving forward with the 723, 845, 846 and 898 crosses? Are there other crosses out there with this same level of superiority? Are there other, maybe older crosses out there that may have even more fire power just waiting to be proven? What if one of today's heavy hitters grew an old unproven seed? Might this seed stand a chance of being the next hot seed? What is the best cross out there to try this on? Will the questions in my head ever stop? Am I speaking out loud? Hello? Echo, echo... What do you think, BF

11/17/2006 10:44:56 AM

President - GPC

I think what we need is a refreshing lesson from Mr Dill, and some of the old time growers that can remember genetically what went on before our documentation, previous to when Joel hit his big ones major steps were take to go 150-200 lbs bigger each year.....why? Introduction of green squash genetics? Techniques? Once thought that one needed massive plants behind a big kin, now things are going a bit smaller, grooming techinques and the information exchange age too.

11/17/2006 1:42:48 PM