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Southern Illinois

ok both of these seed are 1236 723 x 846 and 1005 723 x 846,my problem is i only have 1 1005 mombert and i want to sibb,so can i cross 1005 x 1236 would that be considerd a sibb seed.

2/4/2003 8:20:13 AM

Deer Park, WI

Sorry man, you cant call that a sibb seed. there's just too much variability in the current seeds to call that set up a sibb. If you look at it from a family tree standpoint, they are more like cousins than siblings.

2/4/2003 10:08:33 AM

Southern Illinois

yes i know you have to sibb by using 2 seed from the same fruit,but cousins,i think it would be twins,my plans are to cross these 2 seed this season,then the following season cross it with the 855 kuhn 723 x 846,then the next year,860 wallace 723 x 846,i will do the cross for about five years and every year see how the seed produce,then cross the 723 x 846 after 5 years with the x 963 stucker and x 705 mettler.

2/4/2003 11:00:59 AM

Covington, WA

I can see where your trying to go with this and I think the idea is sound, but I agree with Joze, it's more like first cousins who have parents that are identical twins on both sides mother and father, and those two cousins have gotten together. I've tried to think of a couple ways to explain this more clearly, but this was the best I could come up with. Anybody from West Virginia that can help me out with this? OK that was a joke. At any rate I plan on crossing the 705 Mettler with the 963 Stucker this coming summer, I think you get a better chance of bringing together all the genetic traits in a line by doing this sort of cross rather than selfing. I know in animals some traits are more likely to be passed on by the maternal parent and I suspect this may be possible with plants as well. I keep waiting for someone who understands the genetics better than me to shoot this theory down or bolster it for me.

2/5/2003 1:03:40 AM

Rush, NY

Many years ago a long time grower in Canada that knew a lot about genetics came to visit my patch. I remember discussiong Selfing with him. He said of the seeds produced about 20% will have improved genetics, about 30% will be the same and 50% will not have as much potential. Joze and others, what do you think?

2/5/2003 9:10:12 AM

ontario

Len very interesting....let me see now...723& 845 Bobier....both great seeds....if I am not mistaken they are not related....935 Lloyd....567.5 Mombert.....946.5 Geerts genes....I am sure far back they are related just like many racehorses today....but up close they are very different.....I agree regarding the selfing ...great things can happen, but one can also line-up bad genes as well...can be a hit and miss gamble....if one checks the great seeds....935 Lloyd...946.5 Geerts....1006 Greer...567.5 Mombert...845 Bobier..723 Bobier....846 Calai...are any selfed.....I think your percentages are pretty close....great subject.......wayne

2/5/2003 9:59:32 AM

Deer Park, WI

Interesting points, from both Wayne and Len. And nice description Tiller- had to read it a couple times, but I got it. I would like to see the basis behind the statistics the knowledgable genetics man gave you Len...I shall look into this. I am sure there is a reasonable underlying cause for the percentages listed, other pure chance. In Biology, everything has to have an explanation! I'll be back...hopefully with a better explanation.

2/5/2003 11:47:19 AM

Rush, NY

Jose, the great Grower I was referring to Died a few years ago. It was Gordom T.

2/5/2003 1:46:02 PM

Calif

I have to agree with Wayne that most of the hotties come from heterozygous parents. The idea of selfing is to isolate a gene that gives you a desired trait. It works well when you have a specific trait in mind like flavor or color. By selfing you can increase the probabilty of seeing the trait you want. But you can also drop traits such as vigor and desease resistance invisible traits. Of course the idea we want with selfing is to increase the predictability of monsters. I think that we are always going to be stuck with a small amount of seed in a batch that demonstrate huge and heavy and the rest somewhere in between. Why because there are many genes that contribute to that outcome and the trait were looking for is so heavily influenced by the environmental factors. If a gene is like a coin and the law of probability says you can hit heads 50% of the time ...imagine the probability of lining up 5 coins and hitting heads. So I don't see how selfing is going to work if you don't plant out the entire stock and pick the best....and do it again and again what exactly are we trying to isolate large root system, triple tap roots at each junction...we have to be specific and all the seeds would have to be treated equally........but the jury is still out...not enough data...to know...MB

2/5/2003 2:19:08 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

I completely agree with Mike.
And I believe that there are some seeds good to be selfed and many for what would be better not to self them. Making crosst plans has fun and a lot of entertainmen for winter evenings, but the doughter seed can looks like the father, the mother, each one of the grandfathers or a mixture of some or all of them with the good characteristics... or the bad, and the result could be vigour or not. You will never be able to predict what kind of stuff a particular cross will show.
723 and 846 are fantastic seeds, but maybe their cross is not so nice, just because the genes don't make a good mixture, like in a kitchen recipe. Maybe the 723 make better crosses with the 805, for instance. Who knows it? only experience will say?
I respect hybridation plans and admire all the effort envolved, but I don't believe in the success. The hot seed can appear in the less looked place. Nature always surprises us.

Don

2/5/2003 2:57:59 PM

Ontario

Doesn't matter if you self,sibb or cross with a different seed, its still a crap shoot. The only consistent seed genetics that are out there are the 935 X 865 cross. Also the 652 pukos which is the 1092(935 self X 865). 846 is a great seed and some have duplicated the cross and hopefully it will have good results. More times then not it looks good on paper but it doesn't produce or maybe enough seeds from a particular pumpkin are not being planted enough. Just my two cents.

drew

2/5/2003 3:34:27 PM

Deer Park, WI

Mike- good points and I agree with most of what you said. But...I have one small disagreement. I have in my posession literature that reports "vigor and reproductive capacity were maintained without outcrossing for 10 generations without ill effects." in selfed C. maxima lines. 3 other studies have confirmed this, and I'd say Mr. Willemse has as well. Inbreeding depression is very common throughout both the plant and animal world, however, it is VERY speicies specific. Relatives to AG's as close to cucumbers (same genus) experience inbreeding depression. Some unique quirk in AG's allows them to reproduce with themselves without ill effect. People need to understand this!

Drew- I have to take issue with your statement as well- AG breeding is NOT a crap shoot! Please do not take offense to my opinion, as it is a personal goal of mine to educate growers on this subject. You contradicted your statement by saying the only consistent seed genetics out there is the 935x865. While the cross Bobier made may have been arbitrary, there is a REASON why that cross is so good. And I dont think the 652 Pukos is a crap shoot either! And while the growers may not realize it, there is important methodology involved in these crosses. I applaud the growers who exercise this methodology, whether they know it or not. I'd love to talk more on this matter, perhaps we can discuss this at the niagra seminar.

2/5/2003 4:39:35 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

OK, Joze; but you will also agree with the fact that all the objectives in pumpkin breeding are very rough and childlike. Length of the fruit, highness, wall thickness, etc. How can you controle those characteristics in a cross? Only color is easier to drive under a mendelian base, the rest...
Big with big, ??? hot seed with hot seed??? Hummm I don't know if they are crap shots or not, but they do looks like that. In my humble opinion of course.
Consistency with cross backs, hybrid vigour, etc. looks easier to get in tomatoes than in giant pumpkins. Why?

Don

2/5/2003 5:16:19 PM

Sask, Canada

Well I might as well jump back in here with both feet since I've been away way to long.

In cross breeding tomato's one has to stabilize the variety (usually takes 6+ years to achieve you won't know if you are in fact getting the genetic make up of that variety or if the seed has reverted back to one of its ancestors, which usually happens after the parents. (grand parents and back(F2,F3 etc.)) Plus most smaller type tomatoes have a more dominate role in a seeds genetic make-up rather than the larger when crossed, but that is another topic.

With pumpkins lets revert back to Mr. Dill he must have taken several years to aquire the stabilized AG, crossing the parents then either finding the right ones and inbreeding or crossbacking the offspring.

If we look at allot of the great seeds their genetics come from closely related parents ie. the Lloyd etc.

This leads me to believe that while an AG is an AG selfing, sibbing etc plays a great role in further stabilizing a certain strain of AG (Hybrid Vigor) then when crossed with a certain totally different genetic made up Ag, BANG ie. the 714, 723, 835 and 845 Bobier as well as others.

But on the other hand you will never produce a seed that is 100% guarenteed to produce 1,000 pound pumpkin you can only increase the probability that is why you don't see the bobier seeds producing every one over 1000 lbs, yes growing techniques play a role in this as well.

So I strongly believe the 20%, 30% and 50% rule falls into play.

Next year should see if this is true as well for you that are interested keep your eyes on 846 calai seed crosses and as well a new seed the 732 Holland '02

TTYL
an old friend
Ernie
Giant Veggies

2/5/2003 5:42:56 PM

Sask, Canada

I might as well point out that tomato's have the male and female reproductive organ on the same flower while Pumpkin plants do not and that leads me to believe mother nature decided a pumpkin should be crossed instead of inbreed. But heck we can't all be right. LOL

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

2/5/2003 5:48:14 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Don-its easy for one person to grow a lot of Tomato plants of a cross and pick out the ones which look best.When it comes to pumpkins,Yikes!
I'm sure it would be just as easy with pumpkin's if you grew enough plants.
An alternative would be a group of people working together with the same cross.

2/5/2003 5:57:39 PM

Calif

Joze,
Yes I realize what they say there is little inbreeding depression and there are experts that claim when there is little inbreeding depression that you won't get significant hybrid vigor. There is different oppinions on this as different as how to grow a big pumpkin. what I am talking about is we really don't know the genes or the traits that were looking for to try and isolate and use. For all we know there might be some size enhancing gene in the cytoplasm. Its hard to say and this is non Mendelian so it leans to kinda what were seeng with so little study.. and data..Mb

2/5/2003 6:20:17 PM

Deer Park, WI

You are right, Mike. The biggest rub is that we do not know what types of genes/alleles make up the pumpkin genome. This type of information would make a world of difference! Ive read that you have had bad experiences with selfed seed. That is a very important observation to take note of. I wish we had more like it, and a means of quantifying it. And yes, typically where there is little inbreeding depression you do not see hybrid vigor. However, the same article that described the lack of inbreeding depression in C. maxima also presented evidence that there is signficant evidence for the presence of Hybrid Vigor in Cucurbita. Anyway, Im going to push that crap aside and ask Ernie why he believes the 20% 30% 50% rule is relevant. Until I see some good evidence, those numbers a purely arbitrary to me. Is it becuase one assumes 50% of homozygous recessive genes are degrading, and 20% homozygous recessive genes are beneficial? Or did someone plant 100 seeds of who knows what and count which plants "looked" better than the parent plant. Sorry for smart ass rhetoric, but im a true numbers guy. I cant be convinced on a subject unless someone gives me hard data to rely on. Not to say im set in stone on any of these ideas either, whether its hybrid vigor, inbreeding depression, etc. If someone can prove me otherwise, I welcome it!

2/6/2003 9:58:18 AM

ontario

Well this is getting more interesting all the time....I do believe that selfing is a big gamble....but if done and the resulting seed turns out to be a good or great producer, I would gladly include in my pumpkin crosses....example.....805 Pukos..1092 Burke(f) x 723 Bobier(m)....1092 is a selfed 935 Lloyd...805 Pukos has produced some pretty decent fruit, both big and heavy for size...to me the best genes came out in that selfed cross through the 1092..it then was crossed back on a 723 Bobier( 935 offspring)...producing a 805 Pukos seed that has shown the same great traits....I crossed these great genes with a 845 Bobier...resulting in a 845 Bobier x 805 Pukos cross....four crosses to 935 Lloyd...I believe this kind of doubling up can increase the number of good genes from the 935 Lloyd which has shown to produce many large pumpkins....but only time will tell wither or not this seed will produce..so there is a certain about of luck or uncertainity involved...but if it were selfed and produced a great producing seed then away you go again, but it could also produce a real dud.......I remember a Boss telling me once ( if it were easy anyone could do it )...I believe the same holds true in pumpkin breeding.....also millions upon millions of dollars are spent ever year breeding racehorses, some try to recreate certain crosses by breeding full blooded sisters to same stallions...how many have resulted in the same quality of offspring.......wayne

2/6/2003 2:11:10 PM