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Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

845 Nesbitt =(846 Calai x 940 Mombert) Heavy Ugly Pale Fruit
707 Toftness=(846 Calai x 940 Mombert) Moderate Orange Fruit

Granted many more growers have pursued the Nesbit which might explain the greater weights. But what's up with the color difference. Are all heavy pumpkins butt ugly pale? Many Calai progeny seem to keep the nice red/orange color & run heavy to the estimates. But overall size & weight seem to be a lacking a little. Or is that just my imagination?

Steve

3/2/2003 4:12:26 PM

No Place Special

845 Nesbitt is 846 X 723 Bobier
707 is same I think

3/2/2003 5:37:30 PM

Webster, NY

It just shows that not all seeds from the same pumpkin are created equal.

3/2/2003 5:55:42 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Ugly pale fruit!!!
Check out Neds diary,Mikes as well those are two nice looking pumpkins or am I just extremely prejudice :).
I think the 845 can throw fruit of both your original descriptions.

3/2/2003 7:20:14 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

My mistake. They're both 846 Calai x 723 Bobier.
I read my own cheat sheet wrong. But the question remains. Is genetic diversity that broad among pumpkins? If so, then some growers attempts to "recreate" famous crosses & those attemps to create new "hotties", takes more than a few random seeds to establish a patern. Like corn & other crops, massive acreage has to be dedicated to a cross before identifiable traits can be ID'ed & selected.
Steve

3/2/2003 7:21:51 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Ned's pumpkin does look nice in those pics. Young though. It seems as they get older, the skin changes. I was only veiwing the 845 Nesbitt progeny that appears on the AGGC website. None looked anywhere near as nice as Ned's. Interesting.

3/2/2003 10:19:41 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Steve, in the AGGC site only appears two 845 offspring and only one has odd shape. I believe that is very little information to make a opinion about. From the 707 only come one offspring and it is orange, yes, but I guess that with the orange tarp over, many pumpkins can look oranger than they really are.
When a cross is made, there is a lot of luck involved as the pollen and ovules only got half of the genes of the parent they come from, which half? who knows?
Don

3/3/2003 3:18:07 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Good point Carlos. I looked at a lot of 723 side cousins too, which I should have eluded too. The 707 has seen some local growers, but none of their results have ever been posted on AGGC.
It really seems that age of fruit impacts the "cantalouping" effect in some heavy fruit more than others. Regardless of the weight gain (which is nice), the end result on the fruits appearance is negative in my eyes. I can't help but wonder how this can be unfluenced by altering grow with hormones.
Do you think color can be influenced by cultural or environmental factors such as temperature or fertility?
Steve

3/3/2003 5:31:22 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

I believe that every characteristic on a pumpkin has environmental causes and genetical causes as well. In some fruits the environment has more importance and in others the genetic does. Is hard to know how is the weight of each side of the balance. color is said to have more genetical influence, but some growers report on variations in their own patches with the same plants due to agricultural or management practices.
For instance, I've made a research in the AGGC site on the weight over the chart subject to try to find a genetical relation, as many growers believe to exists. And I did not find it; you can see heavy fruits with light sisters and the opposite, crosses between heavy and heavy with light and heavy doughters and... many... many...
Only a few seed stocks has shown a clear tendency to produce either a heavy ones or light ones, very few. And for me that means that the environment is the most important cause.

3/3/2003 6:49:31 AM

Utah

the 1262 Emmons was a nice orange fruit.

Steely dave is right... I think that there is a lot more genetic diversity among seeds from the same fruit than most people think. It's not a direct apples to apples comparison but it's easy to make my point with humans. Take a male and a female human and look at their offspring... they might all have some traits that are the same... ie- big nose, brown hair and brown eyes... or they might not ... they might have a red head, a blone and a brown haired child. certain family traits show through in certain families, others show through in other families. but there is still a great deal of diversity with in the family.
it kind of leads toward the silver bullet theory that I have heard people talk about in the past.
Don is right also when he says that there is a huge environmental influnce when it comes to weight.
It's the old "R" "r" cross "R" "r" genetics cross.
with the jumping gene twist to it. I think there is a bell curve for all the seeds from any given fruit. 10-20% will
be "losers" 60-80% will be average and 10-20% will be superior.
The more we learn the more we realize that there is a lot we don't understand... it's all a big crap shoot. :)
...with that said... there are heavy hitters that consistantly produce large fruit year after year. that tells me that most every seed out there - including the ones that i classified above as "average" have the genetics to produce a big one ... but our job is to provide that seed with the best possible growing condisions that we can.
and certainly people who grow more plants will have less of a chance that any given plant that they choose will a be "loser" plant.

3/3/2003 4:33:45 PM

Utah

don't know about the hormones... it seems like there are to many variables to keep track of to know for sure if what you did worked or if you just got luck do to some other factor... ?
have heard that a few growers in the past have tried gillerbalic (however you spell it!) acid with no success... but who knows when, how much they applied.

a couple of years back someone put vegetable oil on there fruit and changed their fruit color.
I don't know of any soil charateristics that change fruit color. but i have heard of different colored fruit on the same plant which really makes me scratch my head in wonder ! :)

3/3/2003 4:40:45 PM

Webster, NY

I'm certainly still new at this, but it seems to me that if you get a seed from a big, orange pumpkin then the odds are better that you will grow a big orange pumpkin. However, it is not certain that will happen. You can only find out from growing it. That's assuming your soil is good, and everything else is in your favor.

3/3/2003 6:55:12 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

A local grower commented to me that when he & a fellow grower both start the same seed, the other fellow allways gets better red. Fairly consistantly too. Therefore, I'll need to contact them both & see if I will be allowed to obtain soil samples from them both. I've worked with soil labs long enough to know that I want to use the same lab for both sets of results or this will have little meaning. The concept of manipulating color with soil mineral elements (notice I didn't say chemicals or fertilizer LOL) sound like an interesting persuit.
Clearly genetics plays a role too. Probably a greater one, but what the heck.
Steve

3/3/2003 8:55:46 PM

syracuse, ny

let us know what you find out on that one!
i'd love to grow an 845 Bobier '00 and have it be
ORANGE\RED simply by adding more IRONITE!
seriously, let us know! i put down 2 #40 bags last year.....

3/4/2003 1:12:34 AM

Walton N.y.

we gave out seeds from our 01 pumpkins most were grown in the local area and had quite a color range from very orange to almost white 1 guy even ended up with some dark greenies these seeds were from fruit hand pollinated and kept covered before and after pollination just so many combinations of genes

3/4/2003 8:35:00 AM

Grants Pass, Oregon

I grew the 707 Toftness year and the fruit stayed a creamy white until the end of the season, I had it covered and I never did see orange.

3/4/2003 1:19:17 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

My Guess would be a Madman Marc solution! 4 clones in different soils and see if there is any change in color of the fruit produced. Marc have you seen any remarkable differences in the fruit?

3/5/2003 8:02:03 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Now that's an idea!
Steve

3/5/2003 8:24:49 AM

Usa

What would happen if you pollinated the 845 Nesbitt 2001 with the 935 Lloyd 1997? Wouldn't you bring out the good and bad from the 935 Lloyd and possibly increase size???

3/5/2003 8:53:21 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Ah genetics!!! One never knows!

3/5/2003 11:29:04 AM