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Ankeny, Iowa

I am thinking about crossing a 1061 Pukos 01 with a 1087 Jounhson 02. I am wondering why many pumpkins aren't grown with 1000 pound crosses and are these seeds too old to produce a large pumpkin? Iam also wondering if this choice is a good cross? Any opinions will be greatly appreciated.

10/20/2004 6:08:44 PM

Cologne / Germany

1458 Whittier 2003 - biggest pumpkin ever grown - 582 Hester x 695 Handy. You see you don´t need 2 x 1000+ to grow 1000+.
Sorry I can´t help you with opinions on the cross you are looking for.

10/20/2004 6:48:15 PM

Mn

What i have found is that smaller pumkins will grow lager pumkins. There are exceptions like the 1097 beachy.

10/20/2004 8:56:17 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

Isn't that like saying that a short man and a short woman may have a tall child? Sure, it's possible. But, it would be less likely than having a short child, wouldn't it?

10/20/2004 11:26:01 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

It's in the numbers Junior. Not very many of the hitters are yet bothering to grow the 1000 ABC X 1300 XYZ yet. I think most are still using up the 842's & 582's that produced the 1000lb+ progeny. It will take some time, but it will happen.

10/21/2004 7:50:01 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

So, how long until we see a 3000 pound pumpkin? Sounds like the 4 minute mile to me (not that I'll ever be able to produce either one).

10/22/2004 1:04:37 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

What about 1007.0 Brown 2000 x 1048.0 Cox 2000?
I don't think the 898 Knauss can be seen as a bad seed by
anyone except orange lovers...LOL

Just wanted to post an example of a successful over 1000lb. cross....
Best regards to all!
Michel

10/22/2004 4:59:06 AM

Webster, NY

I'm considering 1370 Rose X 1236 eaton or 1159 barlow for next year. However, it's a long winter and my mind will probably change about 100 times before April.

10/22/2004 5:18:09 PM

Leicester, NY

Junior, I'm not familiar with the 1087 Jounhson 02. If it has 805 Pukos, 935 Lloyd or 723 Bobier genetics in it, then it would make a wonderful cross with the 1061 and certainly seeds from 01 and 02 would not be too old to produce large fruit.

10/22/2004 7:03:25 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

Is there anybody who has put together a graphical representation of strains of AG genetics? I guess you could call it a family tree. Or, more appropriately, a "family vine". Such a project would be tough, but would make it so much easier to followthe lineage of a particular cross or seed.

10/23/2004 12:04:18 AM

Sask, Canada

Crammed:

Yes been done and more info than you can shake a stick at.

AGGC

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

10/23/2004 1:10:26 AM

Sask, Canada

Just to tempt your taste buds, if you will there is quite a bit to 1000lb crosses, but I believe the push will start soon to develop individual strains or lines of Ag's with alot of the top seeds being scarce.

I'll say this again, line breed your seed, DO NOT cross seeds just for the heck of it and yes that goes for remakes. The key to creating the next killer cross or a seed LINE that will constantly grow 1000lb'ers is breeding for a purpose, grow for that purpose then cross out to a different line with the same trait.

Here is some stats (believe it or not)

Currently out of all the 723's or 845's there is only 2 yes two 1000lber's that are worthy of growing further into a line.

Out of all the seeds ever produced there are only two that is classed as a true line bred seed 4th generation and that is as high as it goes, yes only 4 generations.

Out of all 1000lb crosses there are only two that can be used to date that would create a new killer cross. Think of it a killer cross from 1000lbs x 1000lbs nope never been done yet but can be.

Out of all the seeds ever produced there are only two that consistantly grow heavy to chart, not one under chart to date in the bunch.

Just remember where this sport started and the increase in lbs over the years, why do you think this is? what seed(s) do you think helped us reach the 1000lb mark? How do you think these seed(s) where bred/crossed?

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

10/23/2004 1:43:10 AM

Commack, NY

Ernie, i think you have some decent info on your hands that you're not sharing with us! :). Can you get into more depth on that last post of yours? which seeds? and what is your reasoning behind it?

thanks
Scott

10/23/2004 7:22:25 AM

wilmington,ma.

Ernie, I'll second Scott last post! It's like wateing for the next shoe to drop.
Ahab

10/23/2004 5:12:09 PM

Sask, Canada

Any one with access to AGGC has the same info I have, reading and understanding that info varies between growers.

I would rather not go into to much detail right now as some is unproven theory, some may cause friction with other growers, as the way to discribe it properly is by example here is cross A look at it and all the variables associated with it, Now look at cross B and all it's variables I can point out various characteristics which you would notice and you would say ya I see that.

Lets put it this way I have a couple years of study and research into Ag's and about 9 years into tomato's. For me to write down everything would take alot of time.

There are many variables that one must consider when selecting a seed. or selecting a breeding strategy.

sorry I'm tired worked double shift and am not making much sense but I will not get into specific seeds right now or types of crosses to create. I'm just giving you something to chew on, there are excellent seed out there and great crosses to be made one in particular should easily grow a 1,500lb pumpkin but in the hands of a few top growers and there are other variables involved as well.

10/23/2004 5:53:35 PM

Sask, Canada

The key to the next level of seed crosses is selective breeding then you don't begin to look at an individual seed but a select line breed.

This has already started with growers now selecting for various traits and breeding for a purpose NOT crossing seed A with seed B just because that was the two they grew.

There are many traits to consider and out comes should be thought of before one begins then you know what to look for as you and others grow a certain seed or line out.
Weeding the undesirables out and keeping only the best with which to cross.

Once you learned what to look for it is so simple it's stupid. An example what do you get when you mix blue paint with yellow paint? yes it is that simple. Plant genetics is easy you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. forget about F1 crosses and F2's and F3's forget about genetics all together it doesn't matter. Would you understand dihybrid crosses or know about genotypes. I didn't think so.

Think of dominant or recessive or better yet simply good and bad.

10/23/2004 6:21:52 PM

Sask, Canada

Example of good and bad I'll point out an obvious trait some are now trying to grow. Thick, heavy to chart pumpkins.

what is the best seed for the job research into this shows the 1260 Wier as the clear winner all 1st generation offspring have grown heavy to chart some as much as 30% over chart now continue down the offspring line some offspring have now created 2nd generation 1260 Weir seed and with this we now see some going light to chart STOP right there don't go any further if you want to get heavy pumpkins grow only those that go heavy leave the others behind. Now any thing stand out? yep the clear winner of the 1st generation is the 709.5 McCallum. I don't like to see where every one takes a crossed seed and then crosses it further to everything under the sun just doesn't make sense why not self this seed then next year grow two one grows a 500lb and the other grows a 600lber then cross these (tighten the genetics for the trait you want then within a couple generations the bad traits start to show double vines, ribbon vines etc. then it is a lot easier to weed these out. Keep going down the line and you'll end up with a pumpkin that grows thick walls with every seed planted. or for other traits. Tall, green, big stem, big ribs, dark orange. etc.

If you cross a golden retriever with another golden retiever what will you end up? So why do growers want big heavy fruit and cross them with every seed going.

Create a breeding strategy and stick with it make deliberate educated crosses. An example the 727 Pearce was it a fluke that one newer grower grew a 500 and 700 lb fruit off the same plant shattering the Alaska record, or that a first year grower grew a 1054 off it, or for us even after two severe hail storms and 218 sq.ft. growing area it grew a 716lber. This seed also isn't even what I consider one of the great ones but it is a good deliberate cross that proved a theory if only in part.

10/23/2004 6:51:12 PM

Sask, Canada

So now I'll leave you with something else to chew on....

If any one can tell me what makes the seed listed below the #1 seed currently in the world I will tell them the seed to cross it with and give them a future breeding strategy.

*Hint there are 4 variables to consider in this seed.

Hoped this helped
TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

Ps. the seed is half of a cross of what I call a super cross and with the right breeding strategy should create a 1,500lb pumpkin in three generations.

1142.0 van Kooten 2004

10/23/2004 7:00:42 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

958 Van Kooten...or
709 Raymont

There is a 5th generation self seed out there not listed on AGGC. I know because I have it.

10/23/2004 9:06:28 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Ernie,
Maybe you should write an A.G. breeding book.
I don't understand everything you are saying(you'd have to spell it out more for me to get it), but it does sound intriquing.
Let's say you like the cross 845 Bobier X 846 Calai.
Would you recommend crossing an 845 Bobier selfed, one or more generations X 846 Calai selfed, one or more generations? Or is this too simple, and more things need to be looked at?
One cross I've been thinking of trying is an 846 Calai selfed or sibbed X 801.5 Stelts selfed or sibbed. I'm thinking this might result in a more stablized 869.5 Calai-type seed, if i'm lucky.
Thanks for your thoughts Ernie. Feel free to expound on this more, if you fell the urge to.

Doug

10/24/2004 2:19:44 AM

Sask, Canada

Kyle:

There is actually a couple good selfed 5 generation seeds the 826.5 Willemse 2001 being one of them. What I was refering to was certain seeds that are what I class as true line bred. Not being outcrossed at any point, not being backed crossed, selfed or sibbed throughout the 4 generations.

TTYL
Ernie

10/24/2004 12:58:11 PM

Sask, Canada

Doug:

You are to funny, "Maybe you should write an A.G. breeding book" actually I am, been working on it off and on for most of this year when time permitted.

845 x 846, yes this is to simple. Nice cross though maybe somebody should make a cross like this. (snicker)

What you want is to look at a cross like this pick and cross only the best ones from the offspring. Like the example shows above, 1260 Weir to 709.5 so if lets say you grew the 1260 and made the cross (pretend your Craig) then this guy Dave grows your 1260 seed as do a few others, keep your eye on who grew what from your seed then select the best, so you would get a 709.5 McCallum and continue your line breeding with that seed.

It is alot simpler with smaller plants like tomato's I used to grow about 120 plants which gave me good variety in which to chose and out of these I may only save seed from 5 tomato's.

The 846 x 801.5 I would not create a cross like this because I don't believe in back crossing your genetics, doesn't make since, but there are times when this is good it's another variable one would have to work with for the outcome if they choose.

Somebody is bound to disagree with my belief of not back crossing (wouldn't be the first time someone disagreeed with me)(snicker)

10/24/2004 1:30:07 PM

Sask, Canada

So here goes, Plain and simple.

Back crossing 95% of the time is WRONG, Why would you try to create a line (selecting only the good and weeding the bad ones out then bringing back in bad genetics from a back cross(Duh!)) Oh some like to strengthen their cross, Ok why would you make a cross 845x846 say and back cross with a 845 if you continue to do this you might as well just have grown the 845 because you'll lose your 846 genetics. So instead of a cross that is 50-50 you know have one that is 33 1/3 x 66 2/3 Keep the crosses simple.

So what would I do instead 845x846 = A
A x self or better yet A x sibb then you still end up with 50 - 50 but with the genetics from 2 845's and 2 846's
this is a way better method to tighten your genetics in a cross.

TTYL
Ernie

10/24/2004 1:30:14 PM

Cheyenne, Wyoming

Ernie:

What do you think about something like crossing the 1104 Hester with the 1133 Demers? (898 X 845) X (845 X 898)

Beet

10/24/2004 2:03:31 PM

Cheyenne, Wyoming

Or, would it be better in the long run, to "self" cross both of these seeds?

Beet

10/24/2004 2:10:00 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

5th generation 502.5 Ciliberto

10/24/2004 2:36:44 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Crossing reverse crosses is common and comes with mixed results. Like with any seed or "special" crosses, nothing is completely predictable.

10/24/2004 5:44:26 PM

Cologne / Germany

That´s tough stuff here. Can anyone tell if the Al Eaton 2004 strategy makes sense for other crosses? 842 x 1301 = 1446. 842 was 846 x 723. 1301 was 842 x 1236 (reverse 842). 842 crossed with itself x reverse (which is the 1301): congrats! If that is what you call backcrossing, this might be a good example how to do it, or not?

10/24/2004 5:45:44 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Ernie,
The 1096 Glasier has never thrown a pumpkin that weighed under the chart...there's at least 3 out there now, probably a few more.

10/24/2004 11:51:14 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Ernie,
If a "true-line breed", as you call it, is never out-crossed, backcrossed, selfed or sibbed, then what is it crossed with?
I'm assuming when you say "out-crossed", you're meaning crossed with a different lineage? So are you saying seed that are crossed with the another of the exact same genetic cross each year for 4 years....for example (723 x 845) for year 1, then that seed x 332 Sandvik for year 2, then that seed x 838 Bobier for year 3, then that seed x 528 Kuhn for year 4?

10/25/2004 12:02:29 AM

Sask, Canada

Kyle:

There are probably alot of pumpkins that have not gone under chart but 3 does not give you alot to go by to know a likely outcome.

A true line bred seed, just the thought of a 7 or 8 generation seed sends tingles up my neck. Your question I won't answer, you should figure that one out.

Out crossed yes a different lineage or strain.

One I have no Idea what the cross is of the 332. Right there is a clue, if you cannot find out the information you need to make an educated choice about a seed DON'T USE IT.

Two no that is not what I am saying.

TTYL
Ernie

10/25/2004 3:26:49 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Ernie,
I meant that there were more probably than 3 pumpkins out there that go heavy all the time, not that the 1096 has only grown 3 pumpkins. You're an AGGC member, that would have been easy to look up.
332 Sandvik is the same cross as the 723/845/838 Bobier/528 Kuhn, that was the point of the example, and it was a hypothetical example....(953 Lloyd x 865 Mettler crosses). Again, you're an AGGC member, it would have been easy to take the short amount of time to check on that...I thought the hypothetical example was clear.
If you won't answer a question, and I'm still not sure what it is exactly that you won't answer...your term definition?, does that mean you either don't understand the question, or you don't know the answer? You're the one who is using the term "true line bred seed" but you want someone else to figure that out on their own, although it was merely a simple request of your own definition?
Not to keep intentionally harping on you Ernie, but all I keep seeing is smoke screens whenever I raise valid points on certain subjects, or ask what I think are legitimate questions about topics you bring up....on this and previous posts.

10/25/2004 3:49:26 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

"The 846 x 801.5 I would not create a cross like this because I don't believe in back crossing your genetics, doesn't make since, but there are times when this is good it's another variable one would have to work with for the outcome if they choose."

Please tell me how you don't believe in this since it doesn't make sense, but then there are times it's good to "work with it for the outcome if they choose"
Huh?
Which is it? What does that mean?

10/25/2004 3:57:28 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Genetics seems to be an area where noone seems to agree on too much, except that they disagree.
I think if it works then it's right, and if it's right then you should do it. It's all good as long as they keep getting bigger, and heavier. None of us seems to know what the right formulas are, no matter what they claim, how well-versed or educated they are, or what current theories "say" should be the case. Every time someone says this way is wrong, or that way isn't right, then another person does it that particular way and grows another biggie...thereby blowing all theories out of the water.
Let's face, none of us know, it's always an educated guess (just like medicine) and we all have opinions, which are like you-know-what...they all stink.

10/25/2004 6:27:46 AM

Knopp, Germany

apocolocynposis

10/25/2004 6:36:33 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Owen.....:0)
Click your heels twice and repeat after me, "I wish..."

10/25/2004 6:54:23 AM

Sask, Canada

Kyle:

Ok I'll try to keep this as simple as I can, Yes I understood the question and yes I know the answer.

I know there is probably bad feelings between us to which I won't get into, but this in no way has any thing to do with that and DO NOT take offence to this.....

KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid)that is a phrase I use to show others my self included as well to look at something or teach them. LOOK at things simply and the answer will show it's self. I told Dean (cooker69) this all year as he wanted to get to complicated in growing and it really isn't that hard.

So why have I not clearly and simply put out the info? because after trying last year to show people how to breed I was spreading myself too thin. I believe now after looking at it simply I have found my calling in this sport to which I can be of help to others. That is why I started last year to write primers and it has since turned into a book which is about half done and hopefully I can finish over the winter. It will be called Simply "How to Breed Giant Pumpkins".

I will show simply how to breed and what to look for how to research the seeds and crosses basically EVERYTHING will be revealed. Yes including my research and which seeds and crosses are the best. So I don't care to put it all here to much info and not enough time.

10/25/2004 11:21:54 AM

Sask, Canada

I will answer some of your questions seeing as you have already have the knowledge in some degree but you have it mixed up as you already answered your own questions ealier.

People that breed plants or animals and know what they are doing all agree on genetics and how to cross for a desired outcome.

So here goes (Keep it Simple Stupid)The defintion Line bred is not mine and has been around for years. now a true line breed one that is never out-crossed, backcrossed, selfed or sibbed, is......... a reverse cross and by doing this unlike what you said earlier is or can be quite predictable the mixed results you see are the bad traits showing them selves and this is where most give up on a seed. A good example of this the 1230 Daletas, a line bred seed that is showing alot of bad traits, but there is a good if not great one in there and if one finds and grows a 1230 that does not show mutant tendencies they will have a pretty excellent seed. All the variables are there that shows this seed to be a great one. all one has to do is find it.

That's what genetics is all about good genes and bad genes,
So on to back crosses. I'll use this example a breeder breed's a tomato variety and after several years of breeding and crossing only the best that visually show the traits he wants gets to the point where he has a tomato that grows the same size and shape of tomato with every planting now he goes and crosses this back to one of the previous parents that he used and discarded tomato's from with bad traits that were shown. Why would you do this? why not try to find another line or strain that grows the same way but may be a green tomato (green zebra)that you want to further your strain but create a differnt colour of.

10/25/2004 11:49:21 AM

Sask, Canada

Here is an excellent example please no one take offence....

Some guy breeds humans, big muscle, 6.0' blonde hair, blue eyes, and gets to the point that this is a good human and can produce them with very accurate results then some other guy gets one of these and figure's he'll better the human and do it with a chubby guy 5.5' greenish eyes black haired guy.

Do you think he will improve the human if the outcome big muscle, 6.0' blonde hair, blue eyes, is at least expected....

Or another quick example would you let me back a truck into your patch and dump something in their after you worked so hard to get the soil up to par. What's in it?
Does it really matter....

Most would say ya it matters what your dumping in my patch so why then do people grow seeds and cross them with no idea what they are doing or what outcome they are trying to achieve.

Like you said Kyle you might as well Click your heels twice and repeat after me, "I wish..."

You don't have to do this, line breed your seeds and cross them properly with an educated knowledge of what you are doing and why.

So to finish you now know when to back-cross if you wish to do it, at the end of a line before you cross out to another and only after you have weeded out all the bad traits and have reached your desired out come. But you can sib or self for the same results if you chose to tighten your genetics.

Like I said and this proves my point a guide (book)is needed to show people what the heck to do when it comes to selecting and breeding their seeds. Now it would be nice if someone else wrote a book on Soil. (snicker)

TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

10/25/2004 12:09:30 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Ernie,
Thanks for your reply to my question.
So, if I understand you correctly, using my 846 X 801.5 example, an 869.5 Calai selfed or sibbed would be a better choice than 846 selfed or sibbed X 801.5 Stelts selfed or sibbed. This does seem to make sense, if I'm looking for something close to the 869.5 Calai.
I have so many other questions, but I'll wait till the book comes out(smile).
One more thing Ernie, could you elaborate on why your 727 seed is a successful cross. What strategy did you use for choosing it. Maybe this info. will help us make some good crosses next year, if we choose to emulate it.

Doug

p.s. If you have any thoughts on my post regarding breeding/selecting for shape question, feel free to share.

10/25/2004 12:13:17 PM

Sask, Canada

quick note

935 Lloyd (line bred)
801.5 Stelts (line bred)

723 and 845 Bobier (outcrossed)
705 Stelts and 712 Kuhn (outcrossed)

10/25/2004 12:14:28 PM

Sask, Canada

Doug what is it you are trying to do with the above cross what do you want from it

10/25/2004 12:29:25 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Ernie,
I guess I'm just trying to make a cross, that will produce nice shaped, orange pumpkins. I think where you are coming from, with the line breeding, is breeding for maximum size potential. I suppose I could line breed for size and color, but I'd have some studying to do.
I must say, that I don't have a clear objective for next year, as my mind seems to change every few days(LOL).
I should have added, on my previous post, that the breeding/selecting for shape post, is on the Genetics and Breeding message board.
I did read somewhere that if a cross is a good one, such as 723 Bobier X 846 Calai, selfing or sibbing each of the parents, then crossing them, may be a good strategy. This doesn't give you the option of picking genetics from the best seeds in a cross though, as line breeding does.
I have been thinking of what the potential of a 732 Bobier(selfed or sibbed 4 generations) X 846 Calai(selfed or sibbed 4 generations) might be.

Doug

10/25/2004 1:01:20 PM

Ankeny, Iowa

I want to thank everyone for replying to my message. I have gained some very useful insight that will help me in my decision to decide which cross to use this year. Good luck to everyone and have a great rest of the year.

Junior

10/29/2004 3:10:49 PM